wingnut-

On 11/15/2019 at 7:54 AM, angels4u said:

Hello Wing and Steve,

Do you both  have time to listen to this speaker, he explains Babylon so well  ,it's interesting to go into this a little deeper as many ministers and Bible teachers used to explain it different,please let me know what you think of this explanation,I agree with the speaker.

Babylon will most likely be rebuild..

I did watch the sermon yesterday, and 2 years ago I agreed with his position, but no longer.  What the gentleman fails to do is address some very important aspects in regards to timing, which he talks around a bit.  As far as addressing the Jerusalem end of things, he fails miserably, attacking one individual's flawed eschatology from a preterist perspective.  Of course there wouldn't be a single preterist that would see Babylon as Babylon because at the time they believe everything occurred Babylon was insignificant.  Addressing things from just that one single viewpoint does not begin to address the scripture in question.  So let's just look at one specific angle that cannot be reconciled by his position, the timing.

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

The 7th bowl puts the end of Babylon right at the end of everything, and by his position that puts the beast and his armies in Babylon right at that moment.  This simply does not align with scripture, look at what takes place at the 6th bowl.

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The beast and his armies, along with all the kings and their armies assemble at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, they do not survive that, and it is not happening in Iraq, it is happening just outside of Jerusalem.  So there is a serious timing issue in that regard, then on top of that, where does scripture say everyone goes, and what city is it that they come up against?

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

Zechariah 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.

Also comparing what the beast and the ten kings do to the woman to what else Zechariah tells us.

Zechariah 14: 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Also, Isaiah in addressing the state of the land at the restoration of Israel.

Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the Lord:
“In a time of favor I have answered you;
    in a day of salvation I have helped you;
I will keep you and give you
    as a covenant to the people,
to establish the land,
    to apportion the desolate heritages,

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up your eyes around and see;
    they all gather, they come to you.
As I live, declares the Lord,
    you shall put them all on as an ornament;
    you shall bind them on as a bride does.

19 “Surely your waste and your desolate places
    and your devastated land—
surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants,
    and those who swallowed you up will be far away.

5 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I generally take all passages literally unless there is a specific reason contextually not to. That's just the principle of biblical study that I follow.

I do the same, the only reason I can think of to not accept something literally is when an obvious contradiction occurs.  In those instances there must be a reason for any apparent contradiction.  

5 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I do tend to think that it may be a restored babylon or possibly representative of the seat of power of the man of sin (maybe rome, I don't know). The real problem with making it Jerusalem is that it requires spiritualization of incredibly massive swaths of prophecy from the old testament. One could follow that line of reasoning to the conclusion that Babylon itself never existed and that all references to Babylon have always been about Jerusalem (this would actually be required to maintain any consistency in exposition on Babylon itself, but I will digress on that point).

Here is the problem with the idea of a restored Babylon, and in hindsight I really should have begun with this when you first asked what happened to Babylon.  Let's start with what led up to the Babylonian exile, and we can see an obvious dual prophecy in scripture right here.  Jeremiah begins this chapter talking about a very specific time, the first year of King Nebuchadnezzar.  He tells about the warnings to Judah and Jerusalem from God to turn from their wicked ways and be obedient, which they do not do, so then he tells them what  the Lord has in store for them.

Jeremiah 25:8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste. 13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.”

Ok, so now we have a literal problem.  Jerusalem has not been an everlasting desolation since the Babylonian captivity, the whole land is not a ruin and a waste.  And what happened to Babylon after the seventy years?  Did it become an everlasting waste?  Jeremiah goes on to give us a list from God, of all the nations who are to drink from the cup of wrath.

Jeremiah 25:17 So I took the cup from the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to whom the Lord sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people, 20 and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod); 21 Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon; 22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media; 26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.

Now this is where the prophecy really begins to show the duality of its nature, verse 26 in particular.  Jeremiah was instructed to take this cup to each of these nations, and at the end Babylon itself is to receive the cup.  Are we to believe that Jeremiah literally covered the entire earth and every kingdom on it at that time?  If you look really closely at the list prior to verse 26, what we see are all of the nations that Babylon took possession of during Nebuchadnezzar's reign.  None of them immediately became an everlasting desolation.  But again, what happened to Babylon after the 70 years?

Daniel 5:24 “Then from his presence the hand was sent, and this writing was inscribed. 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the matter: Mene, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; 27 Tekel, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; 28 Peres, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”

29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and Daniel was clothed with purple, a chain of gold was put around his neck, and a proclamation was made about him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.

30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31  And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

Belshazzar had a party and decided it was a good idea for him and his guests to drink from the cups looted from the Lord's temple.  The hand of God literally appeared and wrote on the wall, declaring the kingdom of Babylon was over, and it happened that very night.  There is no more Babylon from that point as far as a kingdom, the city lingered for awhile, the Parsin part of the writing became half true that very night and was completed when Cyrus later took the city.  Later it was taken by the Greeks, but after the death of Alexander and the wars that ensued it fell into a state of disrepair and eventually was swept away by the sand.  But the point is, God declared the kingdom of Babylon as finished, literally, so it will not be rising again physically.

5 hours ago, Steve_S said:

(e.g. the fact that Jerusalem is mentioned as being a daughter and a sister of harlotry in one of the key passages used to prove she is the mother of all harlotry!!!!!).

But you're still literally changing the term, from mother of harlots, to the mother of all harlotry.  The title is literally, mother of harlots, which Ezekiel tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and she has daughters that are also harlots.  He gives us the proverb, "like mother, like daughter", which tells us that not only was Jerusalem a harlot, but her mother was a harlot, her sisters are harlots, and all their daughters are thereby harlots, just like their mothers.

The difference is, Jerusalem and her daughters are singled out as being unique harlots, and for being worse than the others.  If the requirement mother of harlots is taken at face value, then it is obvious that Jerusalem qualifies.  When it is changed to mother of all harlotry then no one qualifies, but that is not what the passage says.

5 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I think it's easily demonstrated that God is a specific in His word, and especially in his prophecies. There are massive holes in the Jerusalem theory from a position of specificity. It requires reading large passages in a general way, rather than exploring the specific minutiae.

We haven't really gotten into anything at this point, we are still having a difficult time with the title, mother of harlots.  The only other detail mentioned thus far was in regards to the double portion and you did not respond to that, but really we have barely scratched the surface on specifics.

On 11/13/2019 at 2:29 PM, Steve_S said:

Is the claim that that specific geographic area will be uninhabited perpetually?

If those passages are to be taken literally, it would appear so.  However, there are specific statements to be considered in all of this regarding Babylon.

Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,

“So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
    and will be found no more;

This city will be "thrown down", and the understanding of that is in relation to its location, on the Judaean Mountains.  The following is said as a result of the 7th bowl/vial.

Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found.

If the mountains on which it sits are gone and not to be found, then it stands to reason that the city sitting on a mountain plateau is no longer sitting there and has in fact been literally "thrown down".  And if the mountains it sat on are no longer there, then the Jerusalem of the Millennium cannot be the same city as earthly Jerusalem.

23 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Also, with regards to Zion, I would have to disagree quite strongly with that. Zion is specifically delineated as the City of David (which still exists, right now).

The city that sits there now is a symbolic reference to the Zion of the future.

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

As Jesus said.

John 18:36  Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

And His kingdom comes at this point.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

22 hours ago, Steve_S said:

The great difficulty with this is that Oholibah is not even mentioned as being the chief harlot between the two mentioned in Ezekiel 23, but Samaria is. Note that it was Samaria that was carried off first, not Judah.

I think you may have misread that, Oholibah (Jerusalem) is said to be worse, in both chapters.

Ezekiel 23:11 “Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sister in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister. 

Ezekiel 16:51 Samaria has not committed half your sins. You have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations that you have committed.

Jerusalem made Samaria and Sodom appear righteous.

23 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Secondly, in the case of egypt, using that reasoning, that would make egypt the mother. I cannot recall any biblical imagery that envisions the a mother as a "worst" or "chief" of something, rather than the progenitor or originator of something.

We are told who the parents are in the Ezekiel 16 passage, and Egypt is not the answer.

Ezekiel 16:2 “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.

When Israel first entered the land, the king of Jerusalem was an Amorite.

Joshua 10:5  Then the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon, gathered their forces and went up with all their armies and encamped against Gibeon and made war against it.

After their defeat at Gibeon these 5 kings retreat and hide in a cave, where they are closed in, then released after their cities are taken and put to death themselves.  However, Jerusalem was not cleared of its inhabitants by Benjamin and Judah, the Jebusites remained.  It wasn't until David came along that Jerusalem was taken possession of.

II Samuel 5:3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 At Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and at Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.

6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who said to David, “You will not come in here, but the blind and the lame will ward you off”—thinking, “David cannot come in here.” 7 Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David. 8 And David said on that day, “Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him get up the water shaft to attack ‘the lame and the blind,’ who are hated by David's soul.” Therefore it is said, “The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.” 9 And David lived in the stronghold and called it the city of David. And David built the city all around from the Millo inward. 10 And David became greater and greater, for the Lord, the God of hosts, was with him.

23 hours ago, Steve_S said:

My question is still why Jerusalem is referred to as a daughter of harlorty in Ezekiel 23 if one of them is the "mother" of all harlotry.

It does not say she is the mother of all harlotry, you are adding the all in there, it says she is the mother of harlots, which is what Ezekiel tells us in chapter 16, Jerusalem is a mother of harlots.

Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes (harlots) and of earth's abominations.”

Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’

Ezekiel 16: 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.

55 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not sure if that answers your question since I don't know exactly what in Rev 12 you're referring to or how you view it.

Well, mostly it is because of how chapter 12 ends.  The very last part of chapter 12 should actually be the beginning of chapter 13, it was split up incorrectly by translators.  I will post what I am talking about and underline the section that should start chapter 13.  To illustrate what I mean I will post the first verse of 13 right after.

Revelation 12: 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 

7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Piecing together Rev 13, Matthew 24, and Daniel 7, I see a specific time of war (seals 2-4) followed by a global specific time (3.5 years) of the saints being persecuted by the man of sin (seal 5).  That hasn't happened yet which is why I think that only the first seal has been opened.

Ok thanks for clarifying that for me.  If I understand you correctly you see seals 2-4 as directly associated with the war on the saints.

10 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Seals 2-4 address a time of war which I believe is responsible for the ensuing famine and plagues.  The time of war is described as nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom.  I expect that not many nations, if any, will come through unscathed.  I'm not sure any of the other conditions, outside of earthquakes, are seal related.

I agree that not many nations, if any, will come through unscathed.  I just wasn't sure if you saw those seals as leading up to the war on the saints or directly associated with it, but I think I understand your position now.  I have to take some time and consider that possibility.

13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, the evil spirit being.

This is interesting to me.  If the beast out of the sea is actually here already, then you see Revelation 12 as having already begun?

4 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Is the claim that Jerusalem is her own daughter?

No, Jerusalem and her daughters are spoken of in Ezekiel 16 passage.

Ezekiel 16:48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.

Ezekiel 16 tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and a very unique harlot, it also tells us that her offenses (as well as her daughters offenses) are greater than Sodom and her daughters.  We know of course what Sodom is infamous for, sexual immorality.  Jerusalem (and her daughters) in this passage are said to be worse than Sodom, symbolically linking Jerusalem to Sodom as delineated in Revelation 11.  The symbolic link to Egypt is in regards to idolatry where they first learned to dabble in foreign gods and never departed from that.  This is spelled out in both chapters of Ezekiel 16 and 23.

4 hours ago, Steve_S said:

The issue with bringing Ezekiel 23 into it is that Jerusalem is specified as being a sister not a mother

The purpose for bringing the Ezekiel 23 passage is two-fold.  One because it speaks to the symbolic link to Egypt as far as the source of Israel's idolatry, and two because it points to the identity of the woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, which is Oholibah, Jerusalem.

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Have you given any thought to the confirming of the covenant being the new covenant?  There is a reference to the Messiah, the Messiah being cut off, an end to sacrifice, atonement for sin, all of which speak to the new covenant.

I know that so many people are fixated on the final week as being a 7 year peace treaty of sorts but what if that isn't the case?  Just want to give people food for thought.

Yes, but Israel is being dealt with by God in a very specific way.  This is in part because the Lord blinded them so that all could be included in the covenant.  All the way back to Genesis you can find there is an everlasting covenant made with them, but in the course of time God had to address their disobedience in breaking the covenant, that is what the 70 weeks were all about.  So first look at this passage from Ezekiel, in which the everlasting covenant and the atonement are brought together.

Ezekiel 16:59 “For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God.”

So then the issue is resolving the timing on when these things take place.

Isaiah 27:7 Has he struck them as he struck those who struck them?
    Or have they been slain as their slayers were slain?
8 Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them;
    he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this the guilt of Jacob will be atoned for,
    and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin:
when he makes all the stones of the altars
    like chalkstones crushed to pieces,
    no Asherim or incense altars will remain standing.

Isaiah 27:12 In that day from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

God bless

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

Jerusalem itself did not birth idolatry. In fact, I think one could make an argument that it was set apart before Israel was there.

Israel though did something the other nations did not, they were God's faithless bride as Ezekiel spelled out in chapter 16.  There is also Ezekiel 23 to consider as well.  Here are a few snippets from that chapter, again, another chapter you should really read over in total.

Ezekiel 23  The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3 They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. 4 Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 23:36 The Lord said to me: “Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Declare to them their abominations. 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house.

Ezekiel 23:43 “Then I said of her who was worn out by adultery, ‘Now they will continue to use her for a whore, even her!’ 44 For they have gone in to her, as men go in to a prostitute. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, lewd women! 45 But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.”

46 For thus says the Lord God: “Bring up a vast host against them, and make them an object of terror and a plunder. 47 And the host shall stone them and cut them down with their swords. They shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses. 48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done. 49 And they shall return your lewdness upon you, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry, and you shall know that I am the Lord God.”

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

This is really where it breaks down. Where outside of Revelation is the phrase "mother of harlots" used? I would only be willing to draw that line secondarily, not primarily.

I'm guessing you didn't read Ezekiel 16 lol.  Ok, so here is where it speaks about Jerusalem and her daughters in comparison to her sisters and their daughters, it does not say mother of harlots specifically but does include Jerusalem's daughters.

Ezekiel 16:30 “How sick is your heart, declares the Lord God, because you did all these things, the deeds of a brazen prostitute, 31 building your vaulted chamber at the head of every street, and making your lofty place in every square. Yet you were not like a prostitute, because you scorned payment. 32 Adulterous wife, who receives strangers instead of her husband! 33 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. 34 So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different.

Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ 45 You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46 And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. 47 Not only did you walk in their ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. 51 Samaria has not committed half your sins. You have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations that you have committed. 52 Bear your disgrace, you also, for you have intervened on behalf of your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. So be ashamed, you also, and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53 “I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst, 54 that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all that you have done, becoming a consolation to them. 55 As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former state, and you and your daughters shall return to your former state. 56 Was not your sister Sodom a byword in your mouth in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered? Now you have become an object of reproach for the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and for the daughters of the Philistines, those all around who despise you. 58 You bear the penalty of your lewdness and your abominations, declares the Lord.

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

I suppose my main question is, are you claiming that the actual location of where Jerusalem is will change and that the location where it currently sits will remain entirely uninhabited through the millennium?

I think there is a distinct difference between earthly Jerusalem and Zion, His holy city.  There are quite a few issues with the conventional wisdom in regards to Jerusalem that exists right now.  For one, we know that there are some major earthquakes that occur at the end, and those quakes have a direct impact on that city.  There are also these events that tells us the land will be forever changed.

Isaiah 24:10 The wasted city is broken down;
    every house is shut up so that none can enter.
11 There is an outcry in the streets for lack of wine;
    all joy has grown dark;
    the gladness of the earth is banished.
12 Desolation is left in the city;
    the gates are battered into ruins.
13 For thus it shall be in the midst of the earth
    among the nations,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
    as at the gleaning when the grape harvest is done.

Deuteronomy 32:43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens;
    bow down to him, all gods,
for he avenges the blood of his children
    and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him
    and cleanses his people's land.”

This is the kingdom of the Lord, which will be set up by Him.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

John 18:36  Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

2 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I'd have to strongly disagree with that interpretation. It doesn't specifically say the kingdom of Babylon. It says the "Glory of kingdoms," i.e. the city of Babylon is the glory of the kingdoms which it controls.

Ok. Let me try and clarify, which I can hopefully do without being too lengthy.  The Babylon that is referred to in the future, is in connection with the spiritual connotations, so I'll start there and incorporate both Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50 into this.

Isaiah 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
    the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans,
will be like Sodom and Gomorrah
    when God overthrew them.

Jeremiah 50:40 As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring cities, declares the Lord, so no man shall dwell there, and no son of man shall sojourn in her.

The connection to Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 16:2 “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations,

Ezekiel 16:26 You also played the whore with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. 27 Behold, therefore, I stretched out my hand against you and diminished your allotted portion and delivered you to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28 You played the whore also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the whore with them, and still you were not satisfied. 29 You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied.

Ezekiel 16:46 And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters.

Symbolically Jerusalem is linked to Sodom and Egypt in Ezekiel 16 which really a complete reading is necessary for the full picture.  Then this is touched on in Jude, and specifically stated in Revelation.

Jude 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 11: 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

The symbolic connection to Babylon of Revelation is further on display in Ezekiel 16, where Jerusalem is said to have committed the greatest of abominations, greater than all others, and is also identified as a mother of harlots, as well as the biggest harlot ever.

Jeremiah 50:29 “Summon archers against Babylon, all those who bend the bow. Encamp around her; let no one escape. Repay her according to her deeds; do to her according to all that she has done. For she has proudly defied the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.

Revelation 18:6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others,
    and repay her double for her deeds;
    mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.

The double portion that is promised to Babylon is only attributed to one other place in scripture.

Isaiah 40:2  Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

Hosea 10:10 When I please, I will discipline them,
    and nations shall be gathered against them
    when they are bound up for their double iniquity.

Jeremiah 16:18 But first I will doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted my land with the carcasses of their detestable idols, and have filled my inheritance with their abominations.”

2 hours ago, Steve_S said:

The biggest problem with it, though, is that all Israel, parts of Egypt, and much of Assyria were all parts of the babylonian empire. If it is necessary to read this as having a totally future fulfillment in the millennium and it is literal, and involves the kingdom of Babylon, not just Babylon itself, then all of those would necessarily have to be empty, which is, of course, not an option, as all are mentioned as being quite populated.

I am assuming you are talking about the uninhabited aspect in regards to this, perhaps you misunderstood what I am trying to say.  When I was referring to the overall kingdom of ancient Babylon I was referring to a city within that region, as the angel was specific that Babylon of Revelation is a city.  So that city will be uninhabited, but the area from the Nile to the Euphrates River is the land given to Abraham's seed and that is where the Lord's kingdom will be established.

It cannot be present day Jerusalem because it is going to be destroyed, and it is not large enough for Ezekiel's temple which is the Millennial temple.  As Jesus told us in scripture, His kingdom is not of this world.  It is also important to remember that at the beginning of the Millennium there will not be a ton of people, also in scripture He tells us that it will begin the size of a mustard seed and grow.

God bless

1 minute ago, Last Daze said:

I was pretty sure that that's what you meant but it was a distinction that I felt needed to be made since atonement for iniquity is one of the things that takes place during the seventy sevens.  And if atonement for iniquity occurred at Christ's death, during which of the 70 weeks did it occur?

You were right to point it out, I wouldn't want to confuse anyone, was certainly not my intent.  Marv touched on how I understand it, in that the conditions don't necessarily have to fall within the seventy weeks, they just have to be fulfilled prior to the conclusion of it.

3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Their forgiveness of sins is contingent upon repentance, as it is for everyone.  Atonement was made by Christ on the cross.

Agreed, I worded that poorly.  The point I was making is that they are still covered in their iniquity unless/until they accept Him as Messiah, which is yet future for them.

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

This is obviously literally speaking about Babylon - The "Beauty of the Chadleans' pride. Not really a way that one can make an argument that it is a metaphor for Israel in this context. I post this, because what is specifically mentioned in verse 19 and 20 has not yet happened.

I completely agree this prophecy is yet future, but just to clarify in verse 19 it specifies the kingdom of Babylon, not the city itself.  Why is this important?  Consider the area the Babylonian Empire consisted of.  It ran through the Nile region of Egypt, cut across the upper part of the Red Sea to the top of the Persian Gulf in the southern area.  From the Nile area it went north all along the Great Sea (Mediterranean) covering southern Turkey and moving east along the borders of what was Media at that time and hooking south back down to the Persian Gulf.  So in modern day it contained parts of, or all of the following nations.  Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia.

Most of those nations are specifically mentioned in the end times prophecies, not by their current names but by their names in ancient times, such as Babylon, Edom, Moab, etc.  Those surrounding areas are where we get specific prophecies regarding their judgement, specifically even mentioning the Lord coming up out of them.  While there are also verses that touch on this being a global event, including the passage from Isaiah 13 amongst others, everything specifically mentioned is from within that region and were part of the kingdom of Babylon.  Many people still question whether this will be a global event because of that, which I personally disagree with but many do still believe that.

I'm not exactly dogmatic either, is it possible that Babylon the city will be rebuilt again, sure, it is possible.  I don't expect it will be though, as the hour is growing late and a great city cannot be erected overnight by man.  Given the present state of Iraq it just strikes me as highly unlikely it would begin anytime in the near future.

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

Isa 13:20  It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there. 

In regards to verse 20 this obviously has to be future still as well.  Exactly what part of the kingdom of Babylon this refers to it is difficult to say for certain, but we know that the majority of what was the kingdom of Babylon is the exact area God promised to Abraham's seed in Genesis 15, from the Nile to the Euphrates.  So whatever part of Babylon will never be inhabited again ( I suspect in reference to the Millennial Kingdom period) is probably located on the opposite side of the Euphrates which was the base of the empire.

47 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

In perusing this thread, one of the biggest things that popped out of me was the underlined part of this statement. My question would be, when did this happen and by whom?

Persian conquest

In 539 BC, the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, with a military engagement known as the Battle of Opis. Babylon's walls were considered impenetrable. The only way into the city was through one of its many gates or through the Euphrates River.

https://www.ancient.eu/babylon/

After Alexander’s death at Babylon in 323 BCE, his successors (known as `The Diadochi’, Greek for `successors’) fought over his empire generally and the city specifically to the point where the residents fled for their safety (or, according to one ancient report, were re-located). By the time the Parthian Empire ruled the region in 141 BCE Babylon was deserted and forgotten. The city steadily fell into ruin and, even during a brief revival under the Sassanid Persians, never approached its former greatness.

In the Muslim conquest of the land in 650 CE whatever remained of Babylon was swept away and, in time, was buried beneath the sands. In the 17th and 18th centuries CE European travelers began to explore the area and return home with various artifacts. These cuneiform blocks and statues led to an increased interest in the region and, by the 19th century CE, an interest in biblical archaeology drew men like Robert Koldewey who uncovered the ruins of the once great city of the Gate of the Gods.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Too many presumptions for me. Try this one, for one oft-repeated interpretation:

The city is Rome, which was already drunk with the blood of the saints by the time Revelation was written, and had dominion over the kings of the earth. The woman-harlot is Babylonian religion, practiced by the Pontifex Maximus of Rome, a title later taken by the Roman popes, which religion also became noted for shedding the blood of the saints.

The problem with this is that the woman is identified by the angel as a city, so that rules the religion out.  It is certainly fair to debate which city it will be, but scripture seems fairly clear it will be Jerusalem.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

"The beast that you saw was, and is not [present], and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition." Rev. 17:8 This is Azazel, or if you wish another of the fallen angels cast down to the Abyss at the Flood, as not only Enoch tells us, but also Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4.

I don't disagree, although as I said before I don't put any faith in the book of Enoch so I'm not personally willing to put a name to it.  I also would agree it is very likely that more than just the destroyer is going to emerge from the abyss when it is unlocked.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

When the Beast arises from the Abyss in the End Times, his rulership will not seek any further accordance with the harlot city; rather, his minions "will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire." Rev. 17:16

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

For a very short period of time this is true, not the entire 3.5 year period, but rather one hour or a short time if you prefer.  There are several possibilities as to what brings this about.  One being, the signs of His coming lead to a scorched earth type mentality from the enemy, an if I can't have it no one can response.  The second being, the 1260 days of protection for the Jews expires at that hour, and the enemy simply resorts to doing what he wanted to do at the outset of the 1260 days as explained in Revelation 12.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Hard to see why "the Antichrist" -- your term, not mine -- would permit the destruction of his own capital city by his own subjects. 

We can use the term beast if you prefer, doesn't matter to me.  I do not disagree with your earlier reference to there being many anti-christs.

God bless

17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I absolutely agree that He is cut off after the 62 weeks.  It might be worth looking at the beginning of the prophecy again.

• Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.  Daniel 9:24

Atonement for iniquity is part of what was decreed for the seventy weeks.  I'm sure we can agree that atonement for iniquity was accomplished through the death of Christ.  If the Messiah is cut off after the 69th week, then which week was atonement for iniquity made in?  Has to be the 70th.

This is what diaste touched on, the 70 weeks are decreed for the Jews and Jerusalem to accomplish these things.  THEY must make atonement for their iniquities, which they have not done as they rejected Him.  Just to clarify in scripture, this is what must be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

This goes back to what occurred at the triumphal entry.

Matthew 21: 8 Most of the crowd spread their cloaks on the road, and others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” 10 And when he entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred up, saying, “Who is this?”

This is part of the psalm that is sung every 10th of Nissan, for the choosing of the Passover Lamb.

Psalm 118:25 Save us (Hosanna), we pray, O Lord!
    O Lord, we pray, give us success!

26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
    We bless you from the house of the Lord.
27 The Lord is God,
    and he has made his light to shine upon us.
Bind the festal sacrifice with cords,
    up to the horns of the altar!

28 You are my God, and I will give thanks to you;
    you are my God; I will extol you.
29 Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good;
    for his steadfast love endures forever!

The atonement for their iniquity is contingent upon their accepting Him as Messiah, as it is for everyone.  This takes place at the end of the 70th week, just as the 69th week ended before it.

God bless

On 11/8/2019 at 9:33 AM, Last Daze said:

Agree about the first seal.  The rationale is pretty straightforward and scriptural.

It makes sense to me that this one would be open, though I'm not dogmatic in regards to any of them being open.  So in regards to the rest of my comments these are just thoughts to consider, not something I am convinced of to any degree.

On 11/8/2019 at 9:33 AM, Last Daze said:

I associate the second seal with the time of war that Jesus describes in Matthew 24.

• You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.  But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.  Matthew 24:6-8

When we look at the progression that's laid out in Matthew 24 and Revelation, this time of war is followed by persecution of the saints and then the plagues.  Also, in Daniel 7 we see a war between the little horn and three of the 10 horns which is followed by persecution of the saints.  I think it speaks to the same time in the progression of events.  So, the sequencing is widespread war, the rise of the little horn, persecution of the saints, the plagues. 

The thing with this is, one could easily point to widespread war for a very long period of time.  Just for clarity here are a few links to show what I am referring to in that there have been very few moments of peace since 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1945–1989

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1990–2002

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003–present

In regards to the persecution aspect, this has also been ongoing, dating back to the very start of the church.  It just hasn't reached us here yet, though the means to do so in short order are within sight.  The same would be true of the plagues, famines, earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, etc.  have all been fairly consistent yet as time goes on they also seem to be intensifying.  That could just be because there are more people now so death tolls increase as a result of it.

I guess some clarification would help on this, so I'll just ask you this question.  Do you believe that those conditions will exist for everyone for those seals to be opened, or would it just have to exist for a majority?

On 11/8/2019 at 9:33 AM, Last Daze said:

In my mind, that rules out WW2 as the time of war and there hasn't been a widespread war since, and we haven't seen the rise of the little horn which precipitates from the time of war. 

I think the reason WWII is a focal point is because of the end result, the establishment of Israel as a nation again.  It certainly has some influence on the prophetic time clock, but doesn't necessarily have to be related to the seals themselves, so I think we agree on that.  That being said, the occurrence of war, or the rumors of wars that never took place have not subsided over the course of time from then until now.

On 11/8/2019 at 9:33 AM, Last Daze said:

So I see the second seal as describing a (not too) future event.  In my estimation, the time of war is being orchestrated (behind the scenes) for the primary purpose of bringing the man of sin to the fore.

It is certainly possible you are correct, in fact, some of these wars taking place in the Middle East right now may well be exactly the wars that bring the man of sin to the surface.

On 11/8/2019 at 9:33 AM, Last Daze said:

In a nutshell:

• The dragon is Satan, an evil spirit being
• The beast from the sea (abyss) with 10 horns is an evil spirit being
• The beast from the earth is the false prophet - the only human

When I use the term "beast" I use it in reference to the evil spirit being who comes up out of the abyss. 

Ok, I have no issue in using those terms for clarity.  Considering how you worded this though, I have to again ask about the beast aspect.  Is this the beast you believe is already here as of the first seal?

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If the 70th week is still future then the Messiah's death, which is central to accomplishing the prophecy, falls outside of the time frame given for those certain things to be accomplished.  That makes zero sense to me.  If Jesus' death is central to the fulfilling of that prophecy, it must fall within the time constraints of that prophecy.  It had to have taken place during the 70th week or why even bother to give a time frame?  Now, whether the 70th week is partially or completely fulfilled is another discussion entirely.

The 69th week ended on the day of His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, this was the marker.  It was at that point that He accepted the title of King and Messiah and began to offer the kingdom to the Jewish people.  Also important to note that Daniel says He is cut off after the 62 weeks.  I've never considered the death and resurrection as being a part of this prophecy, but more what occurs when He returns the second time.

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

God bless

On 11/9/2019 at 9:15 AM, dhchristian said:

Your logic is flawed, placing the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation in the second half of the final week, this would make the sixth seal happen at the end of the week. I Am shocked you cannot see this. 

I don't disagree with what you refer to as triangulation, but the 6th seal does occur near the end of the week, so I do see it, but I would disagree as to whose logic is flawed.

God bless

Just now, Revelation Man said:

I was hearing the exact same thing 10 years ago, and it made ZERO SENSE to me then either. And its still being repeated today, the fact that you still repeat it means you don't understand the text at all.  I actually went over this with someone about a year ago and figured out why they were misconstruing the text, and then showed then why it was erroneous, but I can't remember now why they thought that, all I know is the verse is vert clear, but those who can't see the Pre Trib have to latch on to anything they can get I guess. 

ORIGIN OF APOSTASY

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No, that is you not understanding the text, then repeating something you heard somewhere else, that doesn't make any sense.

No, I have no need to hear it from somewhere else, I can simply read.  

58 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

You should consider WHEN the prophet lived, WHERE he lived, to WHICH group of people was He prophesying, WHO were the king and the leaders at that time, WHAT was happening to God's people at the time, and what God was saying about those events. How was He going to step in and correct the situation? All of God's prophecies were NOT about OUR future. Much of what is written was about the future of His people at THAT time in history.

Brother I am not disagreeing with you in regards to any of that, in fact, what we see throughout scripture are in fact dual prophecies that can be applied in that time and also we see them again occurring in the future.  But for the sake of discussion, let's examine some of what is said and put your theory to the test that this is about a swarm of locusts.

Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.

Verse 2, a great and powerful people.  How do you turn them into locusts?

Joel 2:8 They do not jostle one another;
    each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
    and are not halted.

What weapons does one use to thwart a locust army?

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them;
    the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
    and the stars withdraw their shining.

The earth quakes before a swarm of locusts and the heavens tremble?  There have been a lot of locust swarms over the course of history but you would be hard pressed to find these type of comments attributed to a large group of insects.

Joel 2:11 The Lord utters his voice
    before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
    he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome;
    who can endure it?

The Lord's leading an army of locusts?  This is His camp?

Joel 2:30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

This is how it concludes.  Blood, fire, and columns of smoke, from locusts?  The sun goes dark, the moon turns to blood before the aforementioned day of the Lord occurs.  People who call on His name will be saved, from locusts?  There will be survivors, from locusts?  I mean, if it said some olive trees would survive then maybe you would have a case, but it is talking about people.

I have to say, you are the first person I have ever run across that doesn't believe this is an end times prophecy.

God bless

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

It doesn't mean the GATHERING is before the GATHERING, that is something some man passed to you guys because you all repeat it and its a nonsensical statement.

That is exactly what you are claiming it says though, but we do agree that your rendering is nonsensical if that is any comfort to you.  Apostasia is the very word apostasy comes from, as well as the root word for apostate.  William showed you an example from Daniel above as well, same word, it means what it means.

God bless