wingnut-

Yes. The fall of Babylon occurs when the armies take the city and set it on fire. It is at this point that Jesus appears in the sky, gathers the elect, and begins His descent to the Mt. of Olives. Jeremiah 50:2 “Declare among the nations and proclaim, set up a banner and proclaim, conceal it not, and say: ‘Babylon is taken, Bel is put to shame, Merodach is dismayed. Her images are put to shame, her idols are dismayed.’ 3 “For out of the north a nation has come up against her, which shall make her land a desolation, and none shall dwell in it; both man and beast shall flee away. Jeremiah 50:15 Raise a shout against her all around; she has surrendered; her bulwarks have fallen; her walls are thrown down. For this is the vengeance of the Lord: take vengeance on her; do to her as she has done. To me, this represents the fall of Babylon, the city is taken, the false worship within it has been destroyed, and there is no more fight left. The city is still there and burning when the Lord touches down on the Mt. of Olives, then we get the earthquake that opens the passage for the people to flee. It also must align with the 7th bowl/vial according to John, and that is confirmed by Jeremiah as well. Jeremiah 50:12 your mother shall be utterly shamed, and she who bore you shall be disgraced. Behold, she shall be the last of the nations, a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.

Yes, it has to be. The day of the Lord is described repeatedly in prophecies as a day of absolute darkness, in which the sun never rises and the moon or stars give no light. At the 7th trumpet His sign will appear in the sky, and the sign will be the light of His glory as He approaches. This is why every eye will see Him coming. He is the only light, and from that moment on He will literally be the light of the world. Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. Evening is the beginning of the new day going back to Genesis and the creation account, and in this case it is the beginning of the 7th day, the Millennial kingdom. I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion, it is really not complicated at all. Considering we agree that Babylon is already attacked by the army from the north prior to His return I'm not sure what the issue is. Babylon can only fall once, so it really comes down to accepting that fact and that all the mentions of its fall are speaking to the same event.

I don't believe it does, the battle of Armageddon does come after as I said earlier, but the battle of Armageddon is after the 70th week and the beginning of the Millennial reign where He is ruling with the iron scepter. Revelation 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. His reign begins at the 7th trumpet, these two passages are intertwined as far as timing goes. What these later chapters in Revelation do is break down specific events and what we see at the beginning of chapter 19 is the information that gives us the timing in the overall picture. The gathering of the elect at the 7th trumpet happens in the sky, or heaven in Greek, at that point He is very near to setting down on the Mt of Olives. Revelation 19:6-8 depict the gathering in the great multitude, and also the resurrection and changing into our glorified bodies with the information about being clothed in fine linen. This is exactly why the Babylon of Revelation must be Jerusalem, because that is where the nations have gathered and attacked the city. It is this assault on Jerusalem that leads to the Jewish people calling out for Him, which is what He is waiting for. There are two important aspects regarding the fall of Babylon as well that tell us the armies from the north are God's instrument, and also include the Lord as being directly involved at the fall. Jeremiah 50:9 For behold, I am stirring up and bringing against Babylon a gathering of great nations, from the north country. And they shall array themselves against her. From there she shall be taken. Their arrows are like a skilled warrior who does not return empty-handed. Jeremiah 50:14 Set yourselves in array against Babylon all around, all you who bend the bow; shoot at her, spare no arrows, for she has sinned against the Lord. 15 Raise a shout against her all around; she has surrendered; her bulwarks have fallen; her walls are thrown down. For this is the vengeance of the Lord: take vengeance on her; do to her as she has done. And from Revelation 18, the Lord's direct involvement at the announcement of the fall of Babylon. Revelation 18 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. Scripture tells us that the earth is made bright by the glory of Jesus at His return, and that is what the passage above from Revelation 18 displays, Jesus announces the fall of Babylon and it is at the hands of the armies from the north, His instruments for destruction. We also know that He touches down on the Mt. of Olives and immediately proceeds to Jerusalem where He fights against these armies that are gathered. It simply does not allow for Him to be in literal Babylon when everyone, including Him, is in the vicinity of Jerusalem. I agree with you, and I suspect that is why the expositors say that it is happening all over the world as opposed to just a specific region. I think in regards to this it depends on where in heaven you are referring to. At this point Jesus is very near to the earth, still in the clouds (heaven), but on His way to Jerusalem.

The location is about Jerusalem, yes, that is where everyone is gathered prior to the fall of Babylon.

I misread the original post of yours, for some reason I thought you said long gone but you did not say that, you said already gone, so I apologize for the confusion on my part. As far as your questions above, I agree with what you are saying, God most definitely does not have to physically be there to destroy something. However, the OT passages regarding Babylon point to Him using other means to do so, as in the armies from the north, the Medes. What I need to figure out I guess is what you consider to be the final act, or what final act are we talking about. Is your definition the end of the 70th week the final act, or does your definition of final act extend into the Millennial reign? This is why I ask. Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe. This being the final event written in Revelation as far as wrath is concerned, and being connected to when God remembers Babylon, narrows down the timing a bit. This also creates serious issues in the narrative if it is speaking of Babylon literally, and the reason is because of how God judges them in the OT passages and that this is done in a single day. If it is the last day, which the 7th bowl/vial suggests, then there are logistical problems, because all the nations are gathered against Jerusalem, not Babylon. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Now the armies of the whole world are assembled at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, Babylon falls at the 7th bowl, so there are no armies to march to a different place. Armageddon is laid out in chapter 19, and none of those armies escape that battle. Once these armies assemble at Armageddon, they attack Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. This must all take place in a single day according to the scriptures, so as I have been pointing out there is a contradiction. Everyone, including the Lord, cannot be in Jerusalem and someone be in Babylon afterward. Either the prophets are wrong about all the nations being gathered against Jerusalem, or the city in the OT passages cannot be literal Babylon. Everything mentioned above in Zechariah 14 (except for the Lord on the Mt. of Olives) is prophesied about in those OT prophecies regarding Babylon.

I think when we break them down and look at them line by line it is clear they are about more than one nation. I have no doubt that the Lord is going to judge the land of the Chaldeans just as He will judge the whole earth, but the passages themselves speak to something bigger than just the land of the Chaldeans. In response to our other conversation here I am going to touch on some of what I mean.

I am having a hard time understanding your view of things here. You indicate Babylon is long gone by the time the Lord sets down on the Mt. of Olives, so you believe He destroys Babylon before He returns to earth?

So what you believe is the first four verses are about one time, and everything that follows is unrelated?

I specifically said the Babylon of Revelation. Every year the people of the earth will be required to come to His kingdom, this explains why people will have to walk past it and lament it, because it is in close proximity. Ancient Babylon is outside the boundaries of the Millennial kingdom and since it is on the Euphrates river that would not be an area anyone would be trying to cross to get into the land. I agree that the land was left desolate after the Babylonian exile, and that is in large part the proof of what I'm saying here. People, as you point out, make typological arguments about what constitutes "desolate" by their definition of desolate, but isn't it God's definition that matters? I mean, when God said Jerusalem was desolate after the Babylonian exile, and later scriptures from the prophets define the conditions that existed as desolate, then that is God's definition of desolate which would also apply to the state of Babylon. First, to avoid an overload of information, we should probably just stick to the argument I am making, which is in regards to the Babylon of Revelation and the proofs for that being Jerusalem. Because for example, there is nothing in the prophecies regarding ancient Babylon where God assigns them a double portion. There is only one city in scripture that is told they will get a double portion, and that is Jerusalem.

Isaiah 29 Ah, Ariel, Ariel, the city where David encamped! Add year to year; let the feasts run their round. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be moaning and lamentation, and she shall be to me like an Ariel. 3 And I will encamp against you all around, and will besiege you with towers and I will raise siegeworks against you. 4 And you will be brought low; from the earth you shall speak, and from the dust your speech will be bowed down; your voice shall come from the ground like the voice of a ghost, and from the dust your speech shall whisper. 5 But the multitude of your foreign foes shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the ruthless like passing chaff. And in an instant, suddenly, 6 you will be visited by the Lord of hosts with thunder and with earthquake and great noise, with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire. 7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, all that fight against her and her stronghold and distress her, shall be like a dream, a vision of the night.

I couldn't say for certain that it is going off OT boundaries, or if what is in view are the new boundaries given in Ezekiel for the Millennial kingdom. The most specific I can get is from the Zechariah 14 passage where only Judah territory is in view, from Geba in the north to Rimmon in the extreme south. As mentioned in another part of the conversation, it appears to me this is done in stages, the restoration of the land, and scripture states that He begins with Judah. Zechariah 12:7 “And the Lord will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, going before them. 9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." Ok, so you said this is response to the passage from Isaiah 29 I posted, citing that it was related to a historical event. However, this prophecy speaks to the future and I just didn't post more of it for the sake of longevity, but I will show you now why this is not a historical event. Isaiah 29 Ah, Ariel, Ariel, the city where David encamped! Add year to year; let the feasts run their round. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be moaning and lamentation, and she shall be to me like an Ariel. 3 And I will encamp against you all around, and will besiege you with towers and I will raise siegeworks against you. 4 And you will be brought low; from the earth you shall speak, and from the dust your speech will be bowed down; your voice shall come from the ground like the voice of a ghost, and from the dust your speech shall whisper. 5 But the multitude of your foreign foes shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the ruthless like passing chaff. And in an instant, suddenly, 6 you will be visited by the Lord of hosts with thunder and with earthquake and great noise, with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire. 7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, all that fight against her and her stronghold and distress her, shall be like a dream, a vision of the night. There are 2 problems with associating this with history. One, the Assyrians never made it to Jerusalem to set up siege works, God destroyed their army in their camp before they ever reached the city. Two, the Babylonians were not destroyed, they won the battle for Jerusalem. As far as who it is that sets up siege works against Jerusalem I would say it is clearly the nations that come up against her in the last days. We are talking about an apocalyptic time so having to resort to historical means to take a city is completely plausible if modern technology is stifled by lack of electricity and other such technologies being available. As for how long, I can't say, scripture does not tell us one way or the other at what point the enemies encamp all around Jerusalem, it just tells us that they do. It wouldn't appear to be for too long of a period to me though, but that is just my best guess.

I would say he sees things nearly the same as I do.

No problem, let's just slow it down and focus on one thing, works for me. Ok, so I'll just give a brief summary from scripture of how this reads to me and how I understand it. Zechariah 12:10 [ Him Whom They Have Pierced ] “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. This is the emotion from the Jewish people that is going on, and Isaiah I believe addresses that in the first 2 verses by how the Lord responds to His people. Verses 3-5 are speaking to the restoration of the land, most expositors take the Zechariah 14 passage and make it a worldwide thing, despite the specifics Zechariah gives. While I tend to agree with them that this is a global event and not just a regional one, I am not willing to agree that Zechariah states that because he does not. Perhaps the cleansing of the whole earth is done in stages because the Lord says His kingdom begins the size of a mustard seed, and clearly His reign begins in the land promised to Abraham's seed. I believe He is speaking to the survivors at Jerusalem, words of comfort.

I understand completely, that is why I held the position myself for my entire life up until a few years ago. I understand exactly why there is an issue. What I said before is that there are contradictions, and when that happens only one of the two can be true. Where my understanding begins and ends on this are specifics regarding the Babylon of Revelation, and that there is only one city that fits all of those areas.

Yes they take the city, it tells us in verse 2 the city will be taken. They do not completely destroy the city though, there is going to be a massive earthquake when the Lord sets down on the Mt. of Olives, this is where the people who flee go. Whether the forces remain in the city or not remains to be seen.