wingnut-

Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) Paul quotes from Psalm 68 in the Ephesians passage.

Marilyn, you may want to ask a certain individual how one of the 24 elders are there to speak if this takes place before Christ has risen. Revelation 5: 5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

This was one of the songs played at my father's funeral, I don't think I've listened to it since that day, brought back the same emotion. God bless

I was. I guess this is where the misunderstanding began, because I had only posted from Revelation, and wordsword only responded to Revelation. Not that I'm not willing to discuss any of the books you mentioned, but to that point no one was. Big difference, I am encouraging people to seek the truth for themselves, as God instructs us. I reject the notion that any follower of Christ has more access to the truth than another, that we should simply swallow whatever pill someone else hands us. Any teacher that comes and claims they are the only ones with knowledge should be disregarded, and anyone that claims someone they follow has all the knowledge should be disregarded. No, actually what I did was called refuting. When something contradicts what God says, I tend to point that error out. I don't want anyone to receive anything of mine, which is probably why I generally avoid saying much and let scripture do the talking. According to the post you gave a thumbs up to, we should not accept scripture "at face value". I wonder then how anyone can determine anything. If I can't accept Jesus saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" at face value, where does that leave me, or you? Really what that is code for is, let me twist everything into a knot, present my own truth, and you take it. That is why it takes someone defending pre-trib two pages to answer a yes or no question, or to explain away something that is clearly written. I will continue to tell people not to swallow that pill, because we do not serve a God of confusion. False teaching is a serious problem in the church today, and many come away disheartened with gathering together, blaming the teachers they chose to follow. In truth, it is their own doing, if one wants to have a relationship with God then they are going to have to make some effort and read the very words He arranged for us to live by. If we don't know them, it is by choice. So to put it plainly, don't receive what I say, receive what the Spirit says. You engaged me, you included the very post in which you did with your last snapshot. My general rule of thumb when I post is to address the OP, it is their thread after all. When someone else chooses to engage me in discussion I will indulge them as long as it doesn't stray too far from the topic. I wouldn't hold my breath, doesn't interest me in the least. God bless

Brother, I'm not trying to be contentious here, but yeah, seriously. The post you responded to was in reply to my post which was maybe a dozen words of mine, and 90% scripture from Revelation 13. That is precisely what the OP responded to, and you responded with the quote I just displayed again. If you weren't interested in discussing what I posted then I am at a loss as to why you engaged me in conversation to begin with, or what scripture you are referring to in your reply. That's the only scripture posted in the thread at that point. I understand that perfectly, it goes back to my reference to you earlier in regards to the body. A body is made up of many different parts, a hand cannot be a foot, a mouth cannot be an ear, etc. Since end time stuff is not your thing, do you suppose it is possible God has others to fill that role? And if your answer is yes, do you imagine He would want it shared with the other parts of the body so that they can do what I have been saying from the start here, and test it themselves against scripture? God bless

If you didn't agree, then your response makes no sense. God bless

In my response to the OP, I posted the passage from Revelation 13 in response to the assertion that the great tribulation is about God's wrath, meaning that the church would be removed because the fight is not with them. Revelation 13 says exactly the opposite, that the great tribulation is about the enemy persecuting the followers of Christ, precisely why the OP suggests the church would be removed. The response I got was to suggest that I misunderstand what Revelation 13 says. You agreed with it, so that is why you received the response I gave inquiring about it. If I am misunderstanding Revelation 13, then it would seem someone who disagrees should explain why that is. That's why we're having this discussion isn't it? Because I was told that these commentators couldn't possibly be in error? If you think I believe I have all the answers, let me save you the suspense, I don't. I already know that. You're making assumptions about me that are way off base. God bless

I assure you I am not alone, and with each passing day more and more people who are willing to take the matter to God themselves are finding the truth. I would not want you to believe me or take my word on anything, that's the whole point, but it is advisable to weigh everything said against scripture. If you think that when Jesus said in Matthew 24, following the abomination of desolation, that then there would be great tribulation as never seen before has nothing to do with the passage from Revelation 13, then so be it. It would be prudent however to consider the matter, and let God be your guide. If you believe that the 3.5 yr authority and the war against the saints is not to be taken literal, I would love to hear what you believe John is expressing there. God bless

I agree it is very misunderstood, but I guess where we differ is you are of the opinion it was better understood in the past than it is today. What I read above to me is a recipe for disaster, in that the inference that I need to rely on another mans understanding is the exact way I see cults born. From scripture alone we are told to "lean not on our own understanding", and you imply that I should lean on someone else's? The biblical model is that we are to test all things against scripture. There was in fact a group that Paul spoke to, the Bereans, who were commended for their approach in not simply taking Paul's word on a matter, but taking what he said and searching it out for themselves in scripture. This is how one avoids being misled or chasing after false teachers, so I respectfully disagree with your above assertion. The body of Christ is alive and well today, and all parts are functioning as they should. John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. As the passage I originally posted says, along with what the Spirit says to the 7 churches, if anyone has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. God bless

I guess he didn't bother to read this part, the great tribulation, and what it really is about. Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear: 10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

To understand the 7 heads I believe you have to go back to Revelation 12, where we are first introduced to the 7 heads and 10 horns in Revelation. Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. Compare what is in heaven with what is on earth. Revelation 13 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. What stands out to me, is that the 7 heads have crowns in heaven, but on earth they have blasphemous names written on them, no crowns. The 10 horns have no crowns in heaven, but on earth the 10 horns have crowns. What that tells me is, the 7 heads have authority from on high, as mountains are symbolically used in regards to spiritual things. The 7 heads are 7 mountains, and 7 kings, so what we are dealing with are 7 spiritual kings that God has given authority to do His will. So this is how I understand the 7 heads, first we should address the 5 that are fallen. In the history of Israel there have been exactly five foreign empires that took control of the Jewish people. 1. Assyria II Kings 17 tells the story of the Assyrian conquest, but just to display how this was accomplished I will share just a few tidbits from that chapter here. II Kings 17:6 [ The Fall of Israel ] In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria, and he carried the Israelites away to Assyria and placed them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. II Kings 17:23 until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria until this day. God forewarned with the prophets, the warning was ignored, and Israel was taken. Assyria is the first head, their authority came from God. 2. Babylon II Kings 20:17 Behold, the days are coming, when all that is in your house, and that which your fathers have stored up till this day, shall be carried to Babylon. Nothing shall be left, says the Lord. 18 And some of your own sons, who will come from you, whom you will father, shall be taken away, and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.” God forewarned with the prophets, the warning was ignored, and into captivity they went. Babylon is the second head, their authority came from God. 3. Persia During the days of King Belshazzar in Babylon a great feast was given, and the king used golden vessels plundered from the temple in Jerusalem to serve his guests. A hand appeared and wrote on the wall, Daniel interpreted the handwriting for the king. Daniel 5:24 “Then from his presence the hand was sent, and this writing was inscribed. 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the matter: Mene, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; 27 Tekel, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; 28 Peres, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.” It was under the rule of Cyrus, king of Persia that God ordered the temple rebuilt (II Chronicles 36, Ezra 1). Persia is the third head, their authority came from God. 4. Greece The fall of Persia comes at the hands of Greece, again, this is foretold by God to the prophet Daniel. Daniel 11 “And as for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to confirm and strengthen him. 2 “And now I will show you the truth. Behold, three more kings shall arise in Persia, and a fourth shall be far richer than all of them. And when he has become strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion and do as he wills. 4 And as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not to his posterity, nor according to the authority with which he ruled, for his kingdom shall be plucked up and go to others besides these. Persia falls to Greece, bringing on the Hellenistic period, making Greece the fourth head by God's authority. This also speaks to the fall of Greece to what will be the fifth fallen head, Rome. 5. Rome Under Roman rule the land was divided up over the course of time, Jesus was crucified, the temple later destroyed, and eventually leaving the world map as we are more familiar with today. The sixth and seventh heads still to come are the 2 beasts from Revelation 13. The 8th head which was, is not, and is yet to come will be the dragon Himself, Satan, at the end of the millennial kingdom. God bless

No, this is where Jesus sets down at His second coming.

Let him try that with me

All those voices clattering about in your head don't get a vote