asper

hi yod, good post

I gave you the scripture. If being in Christ we are neither male of female, what dos that say about Christ? Understand that there is no need for gender when we are with God. We will not need to reproduce. If we are to be like Christ, not having gender speaks of the likeness of Christ. I doubt very much that anyone can find an instance so I will look at the verse presented which was used to question the sex of Jesus Christ in his unearthly body. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Clearly it is talking about us not being male or female. Not Jesus Christ. In context Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. I believe that it’s talking about that man is not over the woman in this sense of being the child of God. Not that we are sexless. What purpose would being male or female grant us in our next life? Are you inclined to believe that we will be married and have families? Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Though scripture does not come right out and say that there will be no gender in heaven, many do hint of it. Hi onelight, I would agree except for the fact it is in the present tense, there is no indication of it being future Galatians 3:28 There is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> Jew <2453> nor <3761> Greek <1672>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> bond <1401> nor <3761> free <1658>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> male <730> nor <2532> female <2338>: for <1063> ye <5210> are <2075> (5748) all <3956> one <1520> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>. TVM: Present 5774, Not Stated 5799, Indicative 5791, Count: 1617 The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present. Tell me, is Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? I also would like to know why you have gone down this path? What does being neutered have anything to do with not having a gender? hi onelight, of course Jesus is the same but what has that to do with His plan? is the world flooded every day? does He deliver the israelites from the egyptians every day. and neuter not neutered is the word that was being discussed. You can't compare Jesus not changing to how he works with His creation. He does not change, but how He deals with us does. Apples and oranges. i think i said that

I am afraid that is not how you opened this thread. Your question centered around if Jesus was the "perfect" in verse 10. Now you seem to be changing the whole line of meaning. Why? As for people here trying to "push it down your throat", this is a discussion board, not a church. We do just that, discuss. Some believe on a subject strong enough to stand hard and firm. These will be solid in their replies. Others are not so grounded in a certain belief, not sure exactly which way they fall on the matter, and their replies will reflect this. Shalom my observations are my own. i have no problem discussing things. you can have it your way i don't really care either way. .and no i havent changed anything. "that perfect" cannot be Jesus. reread if you must. goodnight

I gave you the scripture. If being in Christ we are neither male of female, what dos that say about Christ? Understand that there is no need for gender when we are with God. We will not need to reproduce. If we are to be like Christ, not having gender speaks of the likeness of Christ. I doubt very much that anyone can find an instance so I will look at the verse presented which was used to question the sex of Jesus Christ in his unearthly body. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Clearly it is talking about us not being male or female. Not Jesus Christ. In context Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. I believe that it’s talking about that man is not over the woman in this sense of being the child of God. Not that we are sexless. What purpose would being male or female grant us in our next life? Are you inclined to believe that we will be married and have families? Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Though scripture does not come right out and say that there will be no gender in heaven, many do hint of it. Hi onelight, I would agree except for the fact it is in the present tense, there is no indication of it being future Galatians 3:28 There is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> Jew <2453> nor <3761> Greek <1672>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> bond <1401> nor <3761> free <1658>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> male <730> nor <2532> female <2338>: for <1063> ye <5210> are <2075> (5748) all <3956> one <1520> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>. TVM: Present 5774, Not Stated 5799, Indicative 5791, Count: 1617 The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present. Tell me, is Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? I also would like to know why you have gone down this path? What does being neutered have anything to do with not having a gender? hi onelight, of course Jesus is the same but what has that to do with His plan? is the world flooded every day? does He deliver the israelites from the egyptians every day. and neuter not neutered is the word that was being discussed.

hi his disciple 3, it does not say perfect one. it says that which is perfect. not he who is perfect. i would not refer to Jesus as that. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Upon careful reflection it appears that I misunderstood what I was looking at. I am going back over some things and studying them out thanks to your question. What I had said was not clearly stated and wrought confusion. I was referring to the method used to denote gender. What was revealed to me that I didn't understand was the use of the adjective as substantive. I am currently going back through some of the new testament to understand the method of translation for it. Thanks for asking the question! Gary quite alright, it happens to me esp more since i am getting older...God bless.

Hi gdemoss, I just want to comment on the following, Quote, As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of. Unquote, Do you have a reference or an example of a masculine gender taking on a neuter gender (in Greek) because you referred to it as that? I am unaware of this. As far as the Holy Spirit in the changing of the neuter to the masculine it is a clever way to reveal the truth about the person of the Holy Spirit. I.e. we use this verse to prove the Holy spirit is not just some force. The reason we can do this is because it is just not done. (at least I am unaware of anyone else doing this and no one whom I discussed this with was able either) (other forums) John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Robertson, Howbeit (δε). One of the most delicate and difficult particles to translate, varying from "and" to "but." When he, the Spirit of truth, is come (οταν ελθη εκεινος, το πνευμα της αληθειας). Indefinite relative clause (οταν and the second aorist active subjunctive of ερχομαι, no futurum exactum), "whenever he comes." Note εκεινος (masculine demonstrative pronoun, though followed by neuter πνευμα in apposition. See #15:26 for this phrase about the Holy Spirit. He shall guide you (οδηγησει υμας). Future active of old verb οδηγεω (from οδηγος, from οδος, way, ηγεομαι, to lead). See #Ps 24:5 for "lead me into thy truth" (οδηγησον με εις την αληθειαν σου). Christ is both the Way and the Truth (#14:6) and the Holy Spirit is the Guide who shows the way to the Truth (verse #16:14). This he does gradually. We are still learning the truth in Christ. From himself (αφ εαυτου). In this he is like Christ (#1:26; 12:49; 14:10). He shall declare (αναγγελει). Future active of αναγγελλω, as in #4:25. See it also repeated in verse #16:14. The things that are yet to come (τα ερχομενα). Neuter plural articular participle of ερχομαι, "the coming things." This phrase only here in the N.T. The things already begun concerning the work of the Kingdom (#Lu 7:19; 18:30) not a chart of future history. See #Lu 7:20; Joh 6:14; 11:27 for ο ερχομενος (the coming one) used of the Messiah. Unquote, Of course you can investigate this on the internet but make sure they are actually referring to this verse and not the ones in chapter 14

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Php_3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. ------------- your Passage in Cor deals with knowledge and operation of things (Like tongues, or knowing things.) When that which is perfect has come..... then the missing parts are added. 1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. Paul states that we just know in part, we have part of the puzzle. 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When something (Perfect comes) then the part we don't have yet will become known. The missing parts will be done away with. 1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. The part we don't know gets done away with once we experience Face to Face. Part of the puzzle is a Face to face encounter. Paul is looking through a glass darkly. There is a separation of glass and image of things he is looking at. When that glass gets removed he will see more clearly. He is looking through a glass into a room that is not well lite. That is his explanation of this. Paul can't see everything in that room clearly. What is Paul looking at through that glass? 2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. He is looking at what the scriptures say. The full glory of the Lord, face to face. As John said, When he appears we shall see him as he is. No longer through the glass. All the glory, wisdom and limitations will be removed. The part we did not know will be done away with. So, your right, it's not specifically the Person Jesus, but our condition and ability to see him face to face, and all his working, understanding and glory. Blessings. hi believeinhim, i think that what you said is very possible. but without further study i cannot speak conclusively on it. but since i proved my point about being careful with the Scriptures i might not look into this for quite awhile...God bless you and yours and all that are here on worthy forums.

Perhaps I should clear the air so we can have a good discussion instead of some trying to disprove me just because of their beliefs, A little over 40 years ago I was a roman catholic charismatic for about 6 years. I spoke in tongues just as much as anybody. But the more I studied the more I realized that there is no conclusive proof that tongues exist today. Neither is there any conclusive proof that they do not. There are times when I visit a particular church that says that tongues exist today. (I would go more because I like their preaching but it is pretty far for me) they don’t push it down my throat like some here appear to be doing. But they do have specific rules that they follow that are according to the Bible. Among other things one is, No interpreter, no speaking in tongues in the church. So basically what I am saying is do whatever you think is right. But don’t misuse the Scriptures when you propagate your beliefs. That is all I ask.

hi Bold Believer, i think that is possible. i will have to research this later...

Hi believeinhim, Yes, that is true on nouns but adjectives are supposed to match the gender of the one being spoken of. Which would be male if this verse was speaking of Jesus Christ. Perhaps this will help, http://www.langintro.com/greek/grammar/adject1.html

So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly… If someone says they have no sin the truth is not in them. I am not perfect outside christ. Christ is the only one that is perfect. To say I am perfect in and of myself is just not true. And you proved my point with your comment, "So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…" In order to be like Christ you must first have Christ in your heart. Only Christ can make you like him. You can work all your life but without Christ you will never be like Christ. I hope this help everyone understand my point. Love in Christ. thank you for your kind response. i would agree if it was not for the fact that this word does not mean what i believe that you are using it for. Once again you prove my point. I did not use the word to the best of your understanding. I am very simple man. I have no degree just the many many hours days month and years spent on my knees in prayer. Let me tell you how I define perfect, without flaw, without blimish, never having sinned. Perfect in every way. This idea that everyone has to have the exact words and understanding correct is a doctrine of devils!. Or, majoring in the minors. Christ is the only one that is perfect, ( I use the word perfect with my understand of the word). i'm sorry that you did not get what i was saying.. i presented some verses and then i presented the definition. i appreciate your opinion but as my name indicates as per (who or what) i will have to take this response as an opinion only until you bring some evidence to confirm your beliefs.

I gave you the scripture. If being in Christ we are neither male of female, what dos that say about Christ? Understand that there is no need for gender when we are with God. We will not need to reproduce. If we are to be like Christ, not having gender speaks of the likeness of Christ. I doubt very much that anyone can find an instance so I will look at the verse presented which was used to question the sex of Jesus Christ in his unearthly body. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Clearly it is talking about us not being male or female. Not Jesus Christ. In context Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. I believe that it’s talking about that man is not over the woman in this sense of being the child of God. Not that we are sexless. What purpose would being male or female grant us in our next life? Are you inclined to believe that we will be married and have families? Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Though scripture does not come right out and say that there will be no gender in heaven, many do hint of it. Hi onelight, I would agree except for the fact it is in the present tense, there is no indication of it being future Galatians 3:28 There is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> Jew <2453> nor <3761> Greek <1672>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> bond <1401> nor <3761> free <1658>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> male <730> nor <2532> female <2338>: for <1063> ye <5210> are <2075> (5748) all <3956> one <1520> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>. TVM: Present 5774, Not Stated 5799, Indicative 5791, Count: 1617 The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.

So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly… If someone says they have no sin the truth is not in them. I am not perfect outside christ. Christ is the only one that is perfect. To say I am perfect in and of myself is just not true. And you proved my point with your comment, "So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…" In order to be like Christ you must first have Christ in your heart. Only Christ can make you like him. You can work all your life but without Christ you will never be like Christ. I hope this help everyone understand my point. Love in Christ. thank you for your kind response. i would agree if it was not for the fact that this word does not mean what i believe that you are using it for. 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect.

Hi whall1971, Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect <5046>, will of God. 1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect <5046>: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect <5046> is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men <5046>. Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect <5046>, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age <5046>, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. And so on, So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…

I gave you the scripture. If being in Christ we are neither male of female, what dos that say about Christ? Understand that there is no need for gender when we are with God. We will not need to reproduce. If we are to be like Christ, not having gender speaks of the likeness of Christ. I doubt very much that anyone can find an instance so I will look at the verse presented which was used to question the sex of Jesus Christ in his unearthly body. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Clearly it is talking about us not being male or female. Not Jesus Christ. In context Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. I believe that it’s talking about that man is not over the woman in this sense of being the child of God. Not that we are sexless.

of course anyone else can answer this question also.

hi one light, do you have any instances where Jesus is referenced in the neutar when in His unearthly form (following the normal greek grammer rules of course)

When that which is perfect is come. What is this talking about. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But <1161> when <3752> that which is perfect <5046> is come <2064> (5632), then <5119> that which is in <1537> part <3313> shall be done away <2673> (5701) 1 Corinthians 13:10 οταν <3752> {CONJ} δε <1161> {CONJ} ελθη <2064> (5632) {V-2AAS-3S} το <3588> {T-NSN} τελειον <5046> {A-NSN} τοτε <5119> {ADV} το <3588> {T-NSN} εκ <1537> {PREP} μερους <3313> {N-GSN} καταργηθησεται <2673> (5701) {V-FPI-3S} 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — Adjective Nominative Singular Neuter It can’t be Jesus because it is neuter. Don’t you think? What’s your opinion? John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

To continue, So basically we have a fulfillment of prophecy and the continuing of the same. 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. The last days seem to cover more then days but in fact years. Many years I may add. The next question I have is all the events prophesied in Joel are for the whole time period or not? Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I would say the pouring out of the Spirit to be during the whole period of time. I would say that the whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved would be during the whole time period. I would say the sun being turned into darkness and the moon into blood would not be the whole time period. So what would you say is for the whole time period and what is just for a particular section of that time period?

i think that it is safe to assume that Peter was explaining what was happening then. Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; but was Peter reffering to all of what Joel was saying or just part of it?

What moment in time do you think that Peter was referring to in the following verses? Then or sometime in the future? Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I think but not positive he broke away from gerald flurry who teaches the same things. Geral flurry won all of armstrongs books some years ago in a court battle that may be why this guy wrote his on. I dont care for them. they preach the U.S.A. and Great Briton are the two lost tribes of Israel. hi coheir, thanks for the info

Hi onelight, I don’t have a high opinion of him or any other cult member. Cult members are one of two types. Deceivers and those easily deceived.

Check this out. http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/pack.htm