MillennialSaint

I haven't watched network TV in years. It's sorta hard if you don't have cable hookup.

MillennialSaint

This is some pretty deep stuff. But it does seem you are correct, and that the number 8 begins a new cycle. As a Pre-Millennialist, I see the 1000 years of Rev. 20 as the 7th day and the general resurrection as ushering the 8th day, in which all things are made new.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Hi Humanoid,

I don't think your research is "nutty" at all. The Bible tells us, "despise not prophesyings" (1 Thess. 5: 20). What you propose is actually a very good scientific explanation of the events that will attend Christ's coming. We all need to pay heed to the "signs of the times." We've already seen the famines and earthquakes in divers places. That tells me the prophetic clock is already ticking. Keep up the good work!

Peace and Health,

Brian

Personally, I'm a pre-trib rapture kind of guy.

Why?

I never intended for this thread to turn into a debate, but to answer your question, my small brain understands the pre-trib view and IMHO is consistent with God's character as revealed to us in the Bible.

Well, I'm a post-trib man myself. I see the "catching up in the clouds" as the fulfillment of Matt. 24: 31.

But I don't have any problem with those who hold a pre-trib view. If you're pre-mil, you my bro.

Peace & Health,

Brian

P.S.-- Also, let's not forget that Hebrews 9: 28 talks of Christ's "parousia" as "the second time." That means whenever He leaves the holy place He make His second appearance. This is when the Jews convert and Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to destroy the enemies. See Rev. 1: 7, Zech. 14.

He comes in the clouds of heaven. Acts 1: 11. Same way he ascended.

Those that remain are "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4: 17).

Compare with Matt. 24: 30-31. All of this is talking of His second advent. This is when the rapture occurs and the enemies of God are desytroyed.

That is the phrase "this generation" does not mean "the people who are alive at this time." Christ was only addressing His discourse to Peter, James, John, and Andrew. All of them were Jews! And this was before they received the Great Commission to extend their message to the Gentiles. So, how do you think they understood Christ's message?

Peace & Health,

Brian

Sure, "generation" is used in different senses throughout Scripture. in the synoptic Gospels it means the Jews. Whenever Christ used the term "this generation" it always has a Jewish reference. Christ is addressing the Jewish nation.

Also, I provided those SCriptures for you to reference them. Please read the SCriptures again, and you'll figure out what I mean by Genetic ordinances. Here's a hint: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." In Matt. 24, v. 34 & 35 go together!

Also, my view was not invented by me. It's been held by many fine & able scholars of Scripture. I think Joseph Mede held this view, also E.W. Bullinger and J.C. Ryle. So, whether you agree or disagree, I'm in pretty good company!

I find this view much more acceptible than the view that CHrist's "parousia" (Matt. 24: 3) ("coming in the clouds of heaven") was fulfilled 2,000 years ago. I haven't seen Him yet. Have you???

Brian

It just makes me wonder, I know that one's stand on the end times does not determine one's eternal destination. But why is the church so divided when it comes to eschatology? I can understand how one denomination will differ from another when it comes to things like what type of worship music should be played or how one should dress up for Sunday, but why are we so divided regarding something as huge and important as eschatology? Is it God's intention? Aren't we all led by the same Spirit?

Hey Fighter,

That's a great point you made. A little while back, some one teased me about "Pan-Millennialism" among Christians. Meaning 'it'll all pan out in the end.' The reason why I'm a strong pre-millennialist is because the successors of the original apostles were all pre-millennial. Plus, the easiest way to understand the Scriptures is pre-mil. Hey, how do you suppose Galilean fisherman and simple tentmakers understood the word of God? Most of the confusion in eschatology comes from allegorizing the SCriptures! If all just became little children and believed what the Bible said, we wouldn't have that problem.

Peace and Health,

Brian

Well, I think I could prove it from the three synoptic Gospels. "This generation" when used by Christ, always refers to the Jewish nation. The Greek word 'genea' is only used a few times in the Acts and epistles, but when it is used it also carries a Jewish reference. See Acts 2: 40, Philippians 2: 15 (where Paul's audience would have understood "crooked nation" as "The Judaizers.")

Also compare Matth. 24: 34-35 with Jeremiah 31: 35-36, 33: 25-26. The nation Israel is co-extensive with the Genetic ordinances.

Uncle, that's just gotta be proof enough!

Peace and Health,

Brian

My friend, you may be taking my remarks too seriously! I didn't "rebut" anything. I simply made a casual observation that the Aussie professor may have been trying to slip Preterism between the cracks of orthodox Christianity. Then I gave my views on the nature of fulfillment. Not sure whether this was taken as an argument. I assure you, my intentions are purely Platonic.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Okay so let's say that he is squeezing Preterism between the cracks.. So what? It's his thread correct? He is the OP right? So if the man created a thread and wants to discuss Preterism, the man has every right too.

What does your first responce have to do with anything that he wrote about? He's talking about the five comings of Jesus, but you respond by stating what you believe (your theory, your position) correct? I provided another theory to add, and you did not know what that view was. I'm not trying to take anything serious on here, but I'm asking you to defend your first responce to him. Again, SO WHAT if he is using Preterism..

Hatcha! cha! cha! Actually, the feller has every right to be a preterism. I was merely disagreeing. But I didn't mean to get in a schoolyard tussle. My mammy always told me to be nice!

But serious. I think Matt. 24 is talking about Christ's future second advent. Not something that happened 2,000 years ago. "This generation" means "The Jews." Or so I believe!

Peace & Health,

Brian

Students of prophecy often pay more attention to Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse because of its greater length and detail. But when we ignore Luke's account, we miss one third of the Lord's message. Read the Article

That's a really great article. I like how the writer draws a paralell between the destruction of Jersusalem and the end of the world.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Do you think it matters what translation of the Bible a person uses?

If so which one, and why - what makes it better?

Some are die hard KJV fans, others of the NIV - some think all but the KJV is a perversion. Personally I can see how the newer translations though lacking in some ways, may actually be more readable promoting better biblical literacy

Any thoughts?

The only one I ever used was the KJV. There's a saying I once heard a country preacher use. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I guess those who plead for better translations have to claim that the KJV is "broke." But I think it's a pretty good rendering of the Greek and Hebrew text.

Peace & Health,

Brian

My friend, you may be taking my remarks too seriously! I didn't "rebut" anything. I simply made a casual observation that the Aussie professor may have been trying to slip Preterism between the cracks of orthodox Christianity. Then I gave my views on the nature of fulfillment. Not sure whether this was taken as an argument. I assure you, my intentions are purely Platonic.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Hey,

That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks. "This generation" means "The Jewish people" not "all the people living at this time." See Jeremiah 2: 31

Christ said He won't return from heaven until the Jewish nation repents and accepts HIm as Messiah (Matt. 23: 39). Also, Peter confirms this statement in Acts 3: 19-21.

The Jews never accepted Christ as the Messiah during the Jewish War of A.D. 67-70.

Also, the Bible opnly teaches two advents of Christ. We are to look for Him a "second time" when He leaves the Holy Place (Heb. 9: 28).

Peace and Health,

Brian

Interesting. I wonder though, why Christ spoke about the fig tree blossoming before He said this generation would not pass. What is the fig tree? Cleary it's Israel correct, which is the apple of God's eye? Zec 2:8.

So what is interesting in your rebuttal is that if Israel blossoms as mentioned by Christ in Luke 21. Then my questions is how could Israel blossom in 70 AD? When in fact she was destroyed? Let me take this a little step further, when in the last 2000 years did Israel blossom? Was that not until May 14th 1948? Which is also Bible prophecy being fulfilled concering the valley of dry bones coming back to life? Eze 37..

the Bible also speaks about the rebuilding of a third temple correct? What will the Jews be doing in this third temple? Animal sacrifices correct? Dan 9:27; Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11. So it appears that when Christ returns the Jews would be making daily sacrifices. Which is also a reason why their is a Great Tribulation against Israel for not accepting her Messiah in the first place.. At least this is how I understand prophecy.

I don't care about the pre-trib, mid- trib or post-trib per se. The fact is you could die today and you need to be ready today. But in general Christ is coming back to fulfill all prophecy.

Hey,

Unfortunately, I don't know much about that view. I interpret the "fig tree budding" as meaning "all these signs taking place." Christ was talking about the tribulations that would fall upon the Jewish people. There is supposedly a gathering back to the city by Antichrist, who will rebuild their temple. Then after he's gained power, he'll sit in the temple boasting himself that he is God. When the Jewish nation repents during the tribulation, Christ will return from heaven, & destroy the enemies. Then the Millennium!

Peace and Health,

Brian

P.S.-- I think Ezekiel 37 means "The first resurrection." That is the "hope of Israel" that Paul is talking about.

Hey,

That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks . . .

It gets old when people use such terms as blankets to cover everything they disagree with. Call something a heresy or label a group of people a cult and you can just reject everything they have to share as obvious error . . . because they[/t] believe it.

It is like somebody mentioning the Sabbath and suddenly everyone want to talk about the SDA

P.S.-- Also, the "abomination of desolation" means "Antichrist," not the Roman armies. None of the early church fathers believed the Jewish War had any eschatological significance.

Brian

Hey,

That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks. "This generation" means "The Jewish people" not "all the people living at this time." See Jeremiah 2: 31

Christ said He won't return from heaven until the Jewish nation repents and accepts HIm as Messiah (Matt. 23: 39). Also, Peter confirms this statement in Acts 3: 19-21.

The Jews never accepted Christ as the Messiah during the Jewish War of A.D. 67-70.

Also, the Bible opnly teaches two advents of Christ. We are to look for Him a "second time" when He leaves the Holy Place (Heb. 9: 28).

Peace and Health,

Brian

Ok, so salvation by faith.

Hm, well, what about the sacrifice being needed before your sins can be forgiven? Jesus died for us because someone had to die substitution death for our sins before we can be forgiven, right? Does this mean Christ died for the sins of all who lived before and after his death on the Cross?

Remember, Christ is called the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13: 8). Adam & Eve left the garden of Eden clothed in the skin of slain beasts. That means they were already covered by Christ's atoning work.

Then Abel offered of the first-lings of the flock. Why was his sacrifice accepted and Cain's wasn't? Because Abel had faith in the blood.

Peace & Health,

Brian

On May 30 I was given a probable diagnosis of Parkinson's disease. I have had a CT scan since (results awaited) and then have a further Neurology appointment in August. Obviously I am very shocked but have been trying to remain positive and have also been reading all the literature sent to me.

My problem is my husband - I don't know what to make of him. He hasn't read any of the literature. He says that he has had "a positive feeling in prayer" though he is not sure what that exactly means. He hasn't told anyone of my probable diagnosis as he says it hasn't been confirmed yet even though I was told it was most likely. While I hope he is right with his positive feeling (and he has been right before on less serious issues) it's left me feeling as if I am coping alone with it all but if I say I need more support he makes me feel like I don't have faith. It feels a bit like having a gun to my head but someone saying "don't worry, it won't go off"! I don't know whether he has great faith, or is in denial!

Any thoughts?

Go with the positive faith. Remember Jesus said if our faith be as a grain of mustard seed, it will move mountains. I know what real faith can do!

God Bless,

Brian

Great commentary! I guess we have to watch out for false views which claim that most of the chapter was fulfilled in A.D. 70. I believe all of it is future. Go back to Zechariah 14. The prophet says that during the siege of Jerusalem, Christ will come and all the wicked will be destroyed. Then the Millennium will commence.

I've had a lot of trouble from the "preterists" who believe the chapter has been fulfilled already. I even challenged Dee Dee Warren to a debate, and she refused.

Peace & Health,

Brian

I'm curious. Did you read the commentary?

Hey Xan,

Yes, I read through it, but when I read I skim. Did I miss something important? What caught my eye was the following statement by Adam Clarke:

But there are some who maintain that these are but three parts of the same question, and that our Lord's answers only refer to the destruction of the Jewish state, and that nothing is spoken here concerning the LAST or judgment day.

That view is preposterous, to say the least. The disciples ask the question when will be the end of the world "aion." The preterists translate that "age," but then they make "the age" end in A.D. 70. But Christ already defined age as "this life"--the present natural order of things which will end when He returns.

I've offered to publicly debate these people time and again, and they all run into hiding. I don't even think Matt. 24 is talking about the "Jewish War." It's talking about the end-time siege of Jerusalem, when Anti-Christ takes over. See Zech. 14. When Christ returns to the Mt. of Olives, all the enemies will be destroyed.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Great commentary! I guess we have to watch out for false views which claim that most of the chapter was fulfilled in A.D. 70. I believe all of it is future. Go back to Zechariah 14. The prophet says that during the siege of Jerusalem, Christ will come and all the wicked will be destroyed. Then the Millennium will commence.

I've had a lot of trouble from the "preterists" who believe the chapter has been fulfilled already. I even challenged Dee Dee Warren to a debate, and she refused.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Actually there is no before. They way has always been Christ even in the garden. He is typified by the Tree of Life. Now before God came in the form of the Man named Jesus the Christ, there were sacrificial offerings. These offerings are were a shadow of the Christ to come. So the sacrificial offering were a looking toward the Christ to come. Before the sacrificial offerings were commanded there was this promise that was given after man fell. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" . That seed is Christ. When Adam and Eve conceived, they were standing on this promise. I would even say those (who believed before the sacrifical offerings were a command) had children to see this promise fufilled.

I do think there is someone on here that can explain this in a more thorough way. But, this needed to be stated, the way has always been Christ.

Amen! This is interesting stuff. I see the truth of life as typifying Christ, though I also believe that it's a real tree, with real fruit on it. If Adam and Eve had eaten of this tree they would have gained eternal life. But after Adam & Eve sinned, Christ had to become that tree for us. The tree is restored in the New heavens/new earth.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Yeah, something that I've come across and cant seem to find an answer to:

What happens(ed) to all the people that lived and died before Christ died on the Clavary? Jesus Himself said clearly that no one comes to the Father but through Him. So that begs a question of what about people that lived and died before Christ's death for our sins?

God's chosen people were the Jews, but who were God's people before the Jews?

The church started with Adam. When he left the garden of Eden, he was already clothed with the skins of sacrifice. This means he was justified by faith.

Justification by faith was going on all the way from Abel down to Christ. See Hebrews 11. But the "visible church" was Israel until the Day of Pentecost.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Hey, Christians have always taught a rapture. It's the 'pre trib' position that lacks historicity. Even when I was a fundamental Baptist I always believed in a post-trib rapture. And this is the view Charles Spurgeon held! I now tend to lean strongly toward the 'pre wrath' view.

I know alot of other Christians would disagree w/ me on this.

Peace & Health,

Brian

Hey, this is just my cup o' tea.

Antichrist leader of the European union? Mebbe.. mebbe not.

One thing is for certain. He'll have his headquarters at the city of Jerusalem.

Peace & Health,

Brian