doverfish

I'm well aware of human the human footprint in the dinosour footprint. Seen it since I was a kid. Who knows? But everyone is avoiding the main question because they don't want to face a real problem. If you believe a global flood killed the dinosours and created the fossils--and it killed all the people---then where are the people fossils? They were buried together, right??? Furthermore, of course every civilizatiom has a global flood myth. Flooding is the most universal and deadly of al natural disasters. However, many really smart people think the civilazations you mentioned are all talking about teh same flood--the Black Sea flood. Finally, the lake in the Andes seems like an interesting case. I'll read more about it. However, there are many lakes thousands of feet above sea level, not created by floods. Most often they reside in the cldera of a volcano. This is what ultimately drove me away from fellowsip though. There is NO REASON why we can't accept teh Bible word for word and still believe in a regional flood. The world, all the mountains, everything under the heavens--as Moses knew it---was destroyed. He had no concept of the true size of the world. By sticking to this viewpoint with the geography staring you in the face, is what Satan probably wants. Because it makes Christians look uneducated. We haven't even begun to talk about the craters on this planet that can only be seen from space that are the remaining evidence of life ending meteor impacts. None of these impacts are recorded in human history----but the evidence of their occurance is undeniable. Did the flood leave huge impact craters??? If there is a human foot print fossil, would that not qualify as a human fossil? Maybe all the humans are turned into gas that yr vehecle burnt?? All it's evidence of is a guy stepping in some mud. If I scrawled my name on one of the blocks of the pyramids, it would not be evidence of doverfish in ancient Egypt. Ah Brother Doverfish, that is not fair is it?? It is evidence that some guy stepped on mud when dinosaurs were around at the same time so yr analogy is not a fair one if you consider how fossils are formed. It is not the same as scribbling yr name on the stones of the pyramids is it? it more like making an imprint of yr hands when the stones are formed, to make a more accurate analogy......... You are correct, that was awfully sarcastic of me. I apologize. Sincerely. What I should have said was: When I was young I was facinated by the footprint in the dinosaur print. It was evidence of humans coexisting with dinosaurs to me. But then two things hapened--and let me change directions a second here First, my teachers in Christian high school taught me that older rocks could not appear above younger rocks (in the case of mountains) and that the fossils of sea creatures on mountaintops were evidence of the global flood. We now know that mountains are created by a process called subduction which places older rock on top of new rock. Please look into this subduction process--it is amazing. Also, through this process, sae creatures from distant ancient sea beds are deposited on mountaintops. So when what my teachers taught was debunked, I began to get skeptical of other things I used to accept. So let's look at the footprint and see if something else reasonable could have happened. The fossiles lie in a know flood plain where flashflooding is also frequent. The dinosaur fossil was formed in antiquity. Then, much later, another flood deposits some sediment on the dino footprints, which a human steps in. The truth is that we do not know, so we can't use it as proof of our viewpoint. That is why I think it would be much more believable if human fossils were buried with dino's. I am a drug salesman, so I have to debate facts and pseudo facts all day. Even when I think I have the truth (and science backs me up) there could be another reasonable explanation my competitor could use to get the upper hand. So I think about things diferently. I am skeptical when either side of this debate thinks they have definitive proof. Again, I do apologize for being sarcastic earlier. No apologies needed Brother.. I am a medical doctor, an obstetrician to be specific so i am not the best authority on geology but i am sure the the understanding of truth or evidence changes in geology like i does in medicine. For example, it used to be taught that diamonds are the product of carbon deposits compressed over millions of years, until the Russians synthesised diamonds in their laboratory and these synthetic diamond are available to buy as we speak. I thinks accepted truths are very dynamic, and certainly in Medicine we change accepted theories in 10 year cycles as new evidence crops up to be evaluated and stories are reinvented to fit the new evidence. I am sure you are aware of this as a drug salesman. Yes, Fossils of ocean sea creatures are found on mountain top.. Certainly that would suggest a global flood that covered mountaintops? Even the process of fossil forming would give evidence of a global flood. If one believes that fossils are formed as a result of an animal trapped in layers of compressed mud, The animals would have to be alive and trapped by a sudden catastrophic dump of tons of material on the poor animal while its still alive. Dead animals float on water due to the decomposition gases and when an animal floats, how can tons of material be dumped on it? The fact that these trapped animals show little signs of decomposition and the fact that great pressures are needed to complete the process would favour eveidence that the animlas are drowned suddenly and tons of material dumped simultaneously as in a global catstrophic flood. Further more, stories of a global flood abound in various cultures that are not in close proximity to the Fertile Crescent. The Chinese stories are very interesting but the North American natives have such stories as well. In fact the Chinese stories claimed that their supreme ancestor who started the Chinese race was a guy called Nu Wa (?Noah) who taught them the first principles of farming, a kinda Osiris figure to he Chinese. The Chinese word for an ark has 8 mouths in it (8 persons), mouths are are interchangable in meaning to persons in the chinese language (kinda like 8 mouths to feed).. Furthermore, the chinese words tell of the whole creation story in addition to the flood. Books are availble if you are interested. I am sure that u would not consider these as hard evidence but evidence seem to point to the same direction of a global flood. From the world of research, we can work out statistics, but the conclusions we draw from the statistics depend on the world view we have. I would prefer to stick to the Bible, no evidence have shown it wrong yet. See this is why productive discussions on this topic are almost impossible. You quoted my first statement about what I was taught, but decided not to address the proven process (subduction) that disproves the flood deposit and immediate erosion theory. You are also wrong about how fossils form. Christians make the mistake of thinking all fossils formed as a result of flooding. If you read earlier in this discussion you will also note that some animals are whole when fossilized and some are partially decomposed when covered. Also, manufacturing a syntheitc diamond also takes tremendous heat and pressure. Not sure where you were going there. Finally, the example from the Chinese language sounds like a Christian urban myth. Why do you believe these books, but not geology? I think it is as you said--they support your world view.

I'm well aware of human the human footprint in the dinosour footprint. Seen it since I was a kid. Who knows? But everyone is avoiding the main question because they don't want to face a real problem. If you believe a global flood killed the dinosours and created the fossils--and it killed all the people---then where are the people fossils? They were buried together, right??? Furthermore, of course every civilizatiom has a global flood myth. Flooding is the most universal and deadly of al natural disasters. However, many really smart people think the civilazations you mentioned are all talking about teh same flood--the Black Sea flood. Finally, the lake in the Andes seems like an interesting case. I'll read more about it. However, there are many lakes thousands of feet above sea level, not created by floods. Most often they reside in the cldera of a volcano. This is what ultimately drove me away from fellowsip though. There is NO REASON why we can't accept teh Bible word for word and still believe in a regional flood. The world, all the mountains, everything under the heavens--as Moses knew it---was destroyed. He had no concept of the true size of the world. By sticking to this viewpoint with the geography staring you in the face, is what Satan probably wants. Because it makes Christians look uneducated. We haven't even begun to talk about the craters on this planet that can only be seen from space that are the remaining evidence of life ending meteor impacts. None of these impacts are recorded in human history----but the evidence of their occurance is undeniable. Did the flood leave huge impact craters??? If there is a human foot print fossil, would that not qualify as a human fossil? Maybe all the humans are turned into gas that yr vehecle burnt?? All it's evidence of is a guy stepping in some mud. If I scrawled my name on one of the blocks of the pyramids, it would not be evidence of doverfish in ancient Egypt. Ah Brother Doverfish, that is not fair is it?? It is evidence that some guy stepped on mud when dinosaurs were around at the same time so yr analogy is not a fair one if you consider how fossils are formed. It is not the same as scribbling yr name on the stones of the pyramids is it? it more like making an imprint of yr hands when the stones are formed, to make a more accurate analogy......... You are correct, that was awfully sarcastic of me. I apologize. Sincerely. What I should have said was: When I was young I was facinated by the footprint in the dinosaur print. It was evidence of humans coexisting with dinosaurs to me. But then two things hapened--and let me change directions a second here First, my teachers in Christian high school taught me that older rocks could not appear above younger rocks (in the case of mountains) and that the fossils of sea creatures on mountaintops were evidence of the global flood. We now know that mountains are created by a process called subduction which places older rock on top of new rock. Please look into this subduction process--it is amazing. Also, through this process, sae creatures from distant ancient sea beds are deposited on mountaintops. So when what my teachers taught was debunked, I began to get skeptical of other things I used to accept. So let's look at the footprint and see if something else reasonable could have happened. The fossiles lie in a know flood plain where flashflooding is also frequent. The dinosaur fossil was formed in antiquity. Then, much later, another flood deposits some sediment on the dino footprints, which a human steps in. The truth is that we do not know, so we can't use it as proof of our viewpoint. That is why I think it would be much more believable if human fossils were buried with dino's. I am a drug salesman, so I have to debate facts and pseudo facts all day. Even when I think I have the truth (and science backs me up) there could be another reasonable explanation my competitor could use to get the upper hand. So I think about things diferently. I am skeptical when either side of this debate thinks they have definitive proof. Again, I do apologize for being sarcastic earlier.

I'm well aware of human the human footprint in the dinosour footprint. Seen it since I was a kid. Who knows? But everyone is avoiding the main question because they don't want to face a real problem. If you believe a global flood killed the dinosours and created the fossils--and it killed all the people---then where are the people fossils? They were buried together, right??? Furthermore, of course every civilizatiom has a global flood myth. Flooding is the most universal and deadly of al natural disasters. However, many really smart people think the civilazations you mentioned are all talking about teh same flood--the Black Sea flood. Finally, the lake in the Andes seems like an interesting case. I'll read more about it. However, there are many lakes thousands of feet above sea level, not created by floods. Most often they reside in the cldera of a volcano. This is what ultimately drove me away from fellowsip though. There is NO REASON why we can't accept teh Bible word for word and still believe in a regional flood. The world, all the mountains, everything under the heavens--as Moses knew it---was destroyed. He had no concept of the true size of the world. By sticking to this viewpoint with the geography staring you in the face, is what Satan probably wants. Because it makes Christians look uneducated. We haven't even begun to talk about the craters on this planet that can only be seen from space that are the remaining evidence of life ending meteor impacts. None of these impacts are recorded in human history----but the evidence of their occurance is undeniable. Did the flood leave huge impact craters??? If there is a human foot print fossil, would that not qualify as a human fossil? Maybe all the humans are turned into gas that yr vehecle burnt?? All it's evidence of is a guy stepping in some mud. If I scrawled my name on one of the blocks of the pyramids, it would not be evidence of doverfish in ancient Egypt.

I'm well aware of human the human footprint in the dinosour footprint. Seen it since I was a kid. Who knows? But everyone is avoiding the main question because they don't want to face a real problem. If you believe a global flood killed the dinosours and created the fossils--and it killed all the people---then where are the people fossils? They were buried together, right??? Furthermore, of course every civilizatiom has a global flood myth. Flooding is the most universal and deadly of al natural disasters. However, many really smart people think the civilazations you mentioned are all talking about teh same flood--the Black Sea flood. Finally, the lake in the Andes seems like an interesting case. I'll read more about it. However, there are many lakes thousands of feet above sea level, not created by floods. Most often they reside in the cldera of a volcano. This is what ultimately drove me away from fellowsip though. There is NO REASON why we can't accept teh Bible word for word and still believe in a regional flood. The world, all the mountains, everything under the heavens--as Moses knew it---was destroyed. He had no concept of the true size of the world. By sticking to this viewpoint with the geography staring you in the face, is what Satan probably wants. Because it makes Christians look uneducated. We haven't even begun to talk about the craters on this planet that can only be seen from space that are the remaining evidence of life ending meteor impacts. None of these impacts are recorded in human history----but the evidence of their occurance is undeniable. Did the flood leave huge impact craters???

Secondly, I think one of the biggest difficulties in you and I having a discussion on this topic is not the issue of literal interpretation. I think that since the evidence seems to support a regional, not global flood. So when I look at the physical world and see this apparent contradiction, I look back at the author. I realize he is telling the truth---the entire wolrd "under heaven" as he understood it was flooded. Like I mentioned earlier, if Noah's flood killed all the dinosaurs and created all the fossil beds (and as you say killed people worldwide)---where are the human fossils?

What's the name of the alt water lake in the high Andes?

The Biblical account of the flood stated that the waters covered all the high mountains under heaven were covered. How ever one tries to translate verse, the truth is rather obvious. the Flood was universal. that is the only way to interprete the words "under heaven" Maybe "interpreting" is the wrong thing to do here. Maybe readers should seek to "understand" the writer. From the writer's perspective, the entire known world was covered with water. That's all that matters. The only good reason for "interpreting" under heaven to mean the whole world is to find an explanation for things like dinosaur extinctions and the Grand Canyon, ect... These things obviously took time that literalists can't account for. Besides, remember God's beef was with sinful men. If, as most literalist believe, civilization was limited to the Fertile Crescent area--why would God destroy the whole planet? The entire world, as the writer understood it, was covered with water and destroyed.

We all know the story. God sends the flood to destry the animals. Non-Christians try to show up a "contradiction" in these verse by contrasting 6:19, which states "two of all living creatures" with the very next sentence in 7:2 where it says "Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal..... and two of every kind of unclean animal" (the "contradiction" apparently being that God only mentioned 2 pairs in the first, but a paragraph later mentioned seven pairs). I always find this one of the most laughable "contradictions" in the whole of non-Christian propaganda. It's a simple matter that the second section is expanding on God's comments in the first. But what floors me every single time I read this (it's usually quoted verbatim from such sites as "evilbible.com", which is somehow less biased than apologetics sites according to the non-believers - oh, and the biggest hoot - when we quote apologetics sites, we're "parroting" dogma and they're quoting is "logical expression" ).... but I digress. What floors me is that they miss a much BIGGER CONTRADICTION that should be shouting out at anyone who knows Old Testament history. The fact that they miss it out on this very simple piece of history in every single list of "Bible Contradictions" just shows how little study the compilers actually put into making up those lists (I wouldn't be surprised if they used a computer program to search for key-words and phrases, found a match that seemed a little off, and then just whacked it in the list).... Anyhow, that contradiction that I see in this passage is - The Levitical Laws on Clean and Unclean foods were not written until generations after Noah existed. God commanding Noah to bring "seven pairs of clean animals" (presumably for eating) is not something that would ever have been understood by Noah, since that law wasn't created till well after the revelation at Mt Sinai, generations after Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and well into Moses' era (skipping sundry generations in between). There are two clear answers I can think of to answer this question. 1- either Moses wrote it and extrapolated his own views from Leviticus (which would have been written in his time) to make the story more appealing and acceptable to the Israelites who would later read it under the Law, or 2- there was already a Covenant in existence with Noah (or perhaps before Noah) - however, this second theory suffers from the fact that there is a complete lack of historical or biblical evidence for such a covenant ever existing. This post, I guess is half-rant/half-question - half ranting at what I call "non-Christian apologetics" which are as dishonest as they claim ours to be *though sometimes Christians do stretch the truth to make their view more appealing - but that's a different argument*, and it's half-question - what are your thoughts on the apparent time-line conundrum. If the Covenant at Sinai did not exist in Noah's age, then why are healthy eating laws from that Covenant given to Noah as he brought the animals onto the ark? Any and all thoughts and views appreciated ~ Paranoid Android Why can't the explanation just be that Moses described the events in the words of his time in terms he understood? Why does everyone have to resolve this with whether the Law existed in some form before Noah? It's ridiculous! Let's say Moses is being inspired (however that happened) and he is writting down this story of Noah. He sees the animals (in his mind) marching into the ark, and they are all "clean" animals. They are also the animals God told Noah to get. So he writes "God commanded 2 of every clean animal". Does that not make sense? It protects verbal inspiration and eliminates any so-called contradiction. People REALLY overthink this stuff.

Several evidences: Large extinction of animals as found in the geologic column. So huge that they are given independent names. The cambrian layer, for example, covers those animals that were buried in the sea. They were buried first. Fossil types are found in horizontal layers that stretch across continents. The nature of preservation involves rapid burial in sediments, otherwise the animals would be scavenged or rotted. The extent of the preservation, ie huge fossil beds indicates many died at once. These beds extend across continents. Huge coal and petroleum deposists that stretch across the world. BA This is where Chistian's interested in using science to back up thier views have to be careful. Emerging science is beginning to show that coal and oil are natural byproducts of the planet and that the earth replenishes the supply somehow. Do not fall into the trap that bacause they are called "fossil" fuels they are simply pooled remains of dinosaurs. Also, almost all dinosaur remains are found BELOW a layer called the Iridium Layer. This layer is found everywhere in the world, and is visible where it is exposed. The layer appears to be sediment deposited worldwide after a meteor implact neear the Yucatan Peninsula. Of course many died at once. But the evidence shows they died during or after an impact event, not a flood. Furthermore, it is wrong to think that an animal has to be covered quickly to become a fossil. In fact, if you look at T-Rex, a complete skeleton has never been found. The layout of most skeletons indicate the animal first stiffened from rigor and bent backward. Then flooding and scavenging moved or removed some bones. The rest of the skeleton was gradually covered by sediment over years of regional flooding. We see the effects of this sediment layering in the hundreds of feet of sediment piled above the skeleton (and above the Iridium Layer). The only reasons we even find these fossils is that thousands of years of erosion have exposed them to our view. Finally, and I am not being snide here ( I swear)--but not one single human fossil has ever been found among these massive fossil beds you mentioned. If a global flood wiped out the dinosaurs and all but Noah's family, we'd find the people too.