Eternally Striving

Christians bands don't do that. Show me one who has. It appears as if you're generalizing Christian hardcore to all of hardcore music out there. This is not the case. Refer to my previous post for proof. Again, refer to my previous post for the reinforcement of that very idea. Hardcore is merely a word. When used in the context of music, all other contexts are void, because they're independent of each other. Having a band be considered "Christian Hardcore" is no worse than having a band be considered "Christian Worship". How so?

This movement spawned Christian rock, and for that, I am grateful. Plus, JPUSA puts on Cornerstone Fest...of which, I'm even more grateful.

Hi Tess, I was not refering to any bands in particular. The original post on this thread had the term "posing as Christian hard rock bands" and you said something about "Christian hardcore". I had never heard the this term before. LT So if you don't know what bands were doing this, then there exists the possibility that no band is is doing any of this. And if that's the case, it follows that everything about this entire debate is void. Well, not the Satan part, but that has nothing to do with Christian rock, so I'll leave that to Joel. Why do people insist on attacking music they don't even know......a mystery of the Universe, perhaps? Or could it be that Christians are just automatic to condemn things they don't even understand or are familiar with? Stuff like that leaves a foul taste in my mouth.

Wait, back up. You lost me. You're saying that Christian hardcore has the hidden messages??? What bands were doing this? And by the way, hard rock and hardcore, could be the same style of music....unless you talk to people who listen to it on a regular basis, those people (such as me) will draw the distinction. Otherwise, there is no distinction, but that's irrelevant. That's the thing, it's not in the Christians. And if you claim that they are, you are burdened with the proof to name the bands of which you claim do this. After you do so, I'll gladly address each and every band in either defense, or in refute of you. If you fail to provide these Christian bands, then your argument falls right then and there. You must also define what you mean by "Christian band". Are you going off of a band that is solely in the genre of Christian music, or are you going off of bands that comprise of Christian musicians. And should you request, I will be more than happy to provide you with proof of how NONE of the Christian hardcore bands are out to deceive. Here's some information about this style of music. Christian hardcore started to come into existence in about the mid-90s with bands like Zao, Living Sacrifice, Unashamed, Overcome. Living Sacrifice derived their name from Romans, and Unashamed derived their name from the fact that the band was unashamed of their faith. The roots of hardcore itself comes from punk rock. Punk bands started getting harder and faster with their sound, which then led to Hardcore Punk. Out of hardcore punk came hardcore, which took a more "metal" bass line, and put in screamed vocals. The original intentions of all spirit-filled hardcore bands (the term spirit-filled refers to bands simply of strong, obvious faith) were to sing honest and sincere lyrics. Because these artists were of the Christian faith, it was only logical that they sing about what meant the most to them (their faith). Bands like Zao have prayed before their shows to just make sure to guard their hearts and make sure that they keep themselves in check with the true purpose of their music (singing sincerely about their faith). Living Sacrifice has put in their liner notes the intentions of not only the lyrics, but the band itself. They explained that their music was a reflection of each band member's faith, and that they're simply singing what they know to be true. They also included the gospel message. Unashamed has put in their songs an explanation of their own faith, and of their intentions as well. Underoath put in a hidden track that expressed the singer's faith and his views. It was more or less like a prayer, hoping that through their music, they're able to reach out to their fans and listeners. Now tell me, how does any of the above show intent of deception among these Christian bands? And if you're just talking about rock in general, going back even earlier to when Christian music was JUST forming (this is back in the...I think 70s and 80s), the prominent Christian rock bands (among others) were One Bad Pig, and The Rez Band. One Bad Pig formed in 85, and was I think a punk band that played Christian punk at venues and just talked about God to their fans. I've read that they had some pretty crazy stage stunts. The Rez Band (formerly known as Resurrection Band) was led by Glen Kaiser (I think he's still around doing music, I don't know much about him). They were a classic rock band (with looks to fit) that based their songs off their faith and off Christ. None of these bands, starting from Rez who formed in 74 all the way to Spoken who formed in 97 did any of the accustations that you've laid upon them. They wrote honest, sincere lyrics about their faith...just using a different style of music to do it with. Your move.

As for the lyrics, that has to be on a band-depending basis. Not every hardcore or metal band out there advocates violence and condones evil...same goes for hip-hop/rap. I'm not even referring to Christian rock at the moment. There are a lot of clean, secular bands out there...lyrical depth may be lacking, but it is clean. Other than that, you would be right. Oh, one also has to consider the beliefs and points of view of the musician him/herself. If the musician carries an improper stance upon a certain topic, then it would be valid to no longer support that band, regardless of how good, clean or Christian they were.

LOL......if you want, I'll defend Dashboard Confessionals, Blink 182, and the Ataris Har.

Why? Because it's true? The only problem with that, is that the article isn't actually true...

And Super Jew...I can't believe you defended a band like Hidden in Plain View. Honestly man, have you no shame?

I must place a disclaimer before I post to say that I have not read through the previous 3 pages of this thread. I was linked to this specific page, so that's where I started reading. To give you members a background on my own personal views, they are as follows: -I'm a Christian -I'm a rocker -I listen to most forms of rock, including but not limited to indie and hardcore. -I always hold by the claim that Christian rock is NOT evil, band/musician depending. I do think that CCM is evil, but only evil in the sense that it in no way appeals to my personal taste. Having given you my background, I'm now going to respond to the Logos Resources link provided. The site makes the claim that rock music is bad (Jimi Hendrix, Crosby Still & Nash), yet Christian music good. I disagree. All styles are both good and bad. Jimi Hendrix was an amazing guitarist, therefore, his music is good. There was once a Canadian Christian band called Jake who when asked what their purpose for a song was, instead of answering the question, asked the publicist what he should respond with to the media. That would make them a bad band. At the same time though, secular rock bands that are blatantly endorsing the embracing of non-Christian actions, or are criticizing the faith are bad. And bands like...um...I don't know...any CCM or Christian rock band that's spreading a message of God's love is good. You can't make the claim that all of one style is bad, and all of another style is good. It's wrong, and I can easily disprove the claim should need be. This chart makes me go :suspect: Too much (or erratic) pulse ----------- Body is sick Too much (or erratic) rhythm -------- Music is sick No pulse ------------------------------------- Body is dead No rhythm ----------------------------------- Music is dead Pulse under control ---------------------- Body is well Rhythm under control ------------------- Music is well 1 - Not all music follows the general rhythm that we are accustomed to. Music from other countries and parts of the world have some crazy rhythms that are perfectly acceptable and "healthy". If you go by that claim, then only the European system of music is good. 2 - Lack of rhythm has absolutely no grounds on anything besides just being...bad, I guess. 3 - A controlloed rhythm just makes it more aesthetically pleasing to the ears. It has no bearing on whether the music is good or bad. FFH has "controlled rhythms" in their songs...it's still bad music . I'm only semi-serious about FFH. 4 - This could be extended to the claim that rock music, and then subsequently hardcore and metal and all other sub-styles of hardcore and metal are bad. That is an incorrect claim. Musically, it just doesn't hold much appeal except to a select group of people and kids. Lyrically, the bands can go either way, depending on what band one is referring to. Living Sacrifice sings praises to God, and Zao does Psalm 77. A band like Slipknot, while I don't know their lyrics, are going for a shock value, and therefore will not be edifying to someone. The claim that music increases one's sexual drive...I have no idea, so I'll just leave that be. Oi...the beat. I don't want to engage in aother debate about how the beat of rock music is evil. The issue at the point of it "resembling paganism" extends way beyond the realm of rock music. It goes into a disagreement about their culture, and that's another area of discussion. Hardcore is not spawned from the devil, and it will not cause you to engage in worshipping pagan gods, nor will you end up becoming a serial killer from listening to the hidden satanic messages. I don't even know what that "Strange Fire" paragraph is referring to, so I'll leave that be as well. That ends my commentary over that article. I realize that the burden of proof to defend hardcore and rock in general is upon me, and will be more than happy to do so should any of you request it.

Oi...a statement about that isn't even about metal anymore then. What are you going to define as "Christian"? If it's something that God would condone...I see absolutely no evidence for Him not doing so. If it's something that holds evangelistic capabilities...it does. If it's something that all Christians everywhere would support...then nothing's Christian at all. If it's about connotations that hardcore is evil...get over it. Because connotations only hold surface value. The reality of the hardcore scene is that it isn't evil, and that there are devoted members to the faith playing that kind of music. I can only agree with your statement in the sense that SOME bands who claim to be a Christian band aren't. But again, that goes beyond just metal, and into the ever-perpetual debate about between "Christians in a band vs. a band with Christian members". Little clarification, please?

So I'm that friend Tessie was referring to. There are just a few points to address: -You'd be "called" into a ministry like death metal if you're into that kind of music with a passion. Most of the bands that I know wouldn't be able to play the kind of music they do (hardcore/metal) without have a passion for that style. -Death Metal isn't so much a way of life as just a genre classification. That title refers to the sound of the music more so than the lifestyles of the musicians. To say that "Christian Death Metal" is wrong is just like saying "Christian Pop Music" is wrong. The only way it'd be wrong is if there were an absuse of the privileges granted to more popular artists, and their actions weren't lived out in a Christ-like manner. -Christian Deat Metal isn't an oxymoron. - That's only secular Death Metal. Most xian (my abbreviation for Christian because that words really long to type) hxc (hardcore) bands out there sing about finding hope despite all the world's crappiness. Bands like As I Lay Dying still talk about death, but they usually incorporate in the fact that with death, there comes the fact that one's with God again. -Honestly, only do the "evangelism" aspect of the music if you seriously feel like that's what you're supposed to do. Otherwise, you'll just turn off a lot of kids. If you're gonna play in a metal band, just be sincere about your faith and don't shove anything down anyone's throat. So long as you're sincere, I'd say that God will have His way regardless. (Tess, I've never written anything cheesier than that last sentence...share that with anyone and I kick you). -Some of the best lyrics out there are from bands like Hopesfall (only their first 2 albums), mewithoutYou, Living Sacrifice and Zao (first, second, and third albums). The way the singers write is in a way that doesn't have the Jesus-Count as some have titled it. The Jesus-Count being how many times the name Jesus is mentioned in a song in order to make it a Christian song. These bands hardly ever mention Christ or God...but the overtones and the lyrics are written in such a way that it's blatantly obvious that it's a "Christian" song. If you want to be subversive about it...that's almost a better way of "winning souls" should you choose to. You'll also gain a lot of hardcore fans who are more into the underground scene, and don't actually want to listen to songs that say Jesus every 3 words.