Eternally Striving

There ought not be a dualistic conception of music. There is normative value being applied to music when one distinguishes between 'secular' and 'sacred' [or whatever alternative you want to put here] and there ought not be one. Dualism is a hard conception to break out, but it is necessary to do so on the grounds that dualism is so incredibly destructive to how we view the world. It creates fears and divides that completely close off an openness to things that might in fact hold an incredible amount of value and quality just on the grounds that "it doesn't glorify God". I challenge that notion because the act of creation itself glorifies God, and the work should not be completely discredited just because of content. I could make case after case of songs or films that have questionable content but address how the world is and in that respect, does a better job of glorifying God than say...the Left Behind series. Grace and peace.

So are you actually asking for proof about how Christan rock isn't evil? And not only is it not evil, but capable of being used to glorify God? Because I can supply that. Here we go. First, a brief history: Christian hardcore gained popularity in about the mid-90s. They entered the scene with intentions of creating music based on their beliefs. They (the musicians) wanted to reach out the kids in that particular scene, because no one else apparently would...in fact, there are only a few ministries even in today's time (that I know of, at least) that are reaching out to these kids. Their lyrics were reflections of their lives, and they lived their lives trying to reflect Christ. Consequently, the lyrics were also about Christ. You won't be able to do much of a JPM count (Jesus Per Minute), but the implications of their beliefs are very much apparent. Here is a list of oldschool hardcore bands...many of them have since broken up, but you're welcome to look into their history should you choose to...either to dig up dirt, or to actually read up about their beliefs. Unashamed Overcome No Innocent Victim Living Sacrifice Few Left Standing Luti-Kriss (old name) - Norma Jean (present day name) Point of Recognition Those are just a few of the bands. All of the above listed bands have lyrics Here That addresses the history of the genre itself. You will be hard pressed to find evidence of their lack of faith in Christ in their lyrics. A few articles of evidence citing the faith of some of these bands: Shawn Jonas (ex-singer of Zao--prominent current day hardcore band) left Zao and was a youth pastor for a period of time before he went and formed another band called Symphony in Peril (another current day hardcore band). No Innocent Victim is choosing to come out of retirement, and release another record. Their reason: Source Living Sacrifice wrote about their beliefs in the liner notes of their [Reborn] CD. They also included the gospel message. A band called Underoath incorporated a hidden track in which the lead singer spoke of the hope that Christ offers people, and how we hoped that the music they were producing could show some of the kids that hope. These bands are reaching out to a scene that no one else is wanting to reach out to because everyone thinks that this music is evil (as this very thread has tried to prove) and this music is going to cause people to stumble in their faith or whatever. There's more value in these bands trying to reach out to kids in that than can ever be derived from debating about the evils of hardcore.

And eggs will boil when you go to a concert...plants will die when you play rock music....and my innards will molecularly breakdown if I mosh too much.

I thought this thread was about secular music?

At least Marvel's better than Dark Horse. Dark Horse has the word "dark" in it...which is then associated with evil. And all evil is bad. Therefore, Dark Horse Comics is bad. What if it were Pale White Horse comics?

Spandex and rock just don't mix. I am wondering if you are confusing Petra with Stryper? Holy cheese, I was. Wow, that was shameful. You guys didn't read that. Not from me. Shhhh.

Similarly, we all know that porn is out on the internet. Therefore, none of us should be surfing the web, because 1 - porn is on the net, and 2 - even the best of filters make no guarantee that a bad pop-up will not appear. It's only fair to apply a given mindset to all acts of life.

Spandex and rock just don't mix.

Larry's obviously lost the debate, he just won't man up and admit it. Every aspect of hxc being "evil" has been addressed, and refuted. Now that that's settled, onto bigger and better things: I'm on the verge of mathematically showing that hXc is evil. Why do I do this, you ask? Well, the clear and simple answer is merely because we ALL know that it's a wretched, wretched style of music that was spawned from satan himself. The End. Proof pending.

I'm so confused. Here are two EXACT OPPOSITE statements made from you. So which is it? First you think that I'm taking quotes out of context, when I'm really not, then you say one thing in one post and completely go against yourself in another... By the way, don't think that my "anger" is a result of my musical taste, and don't judge me based on my music. There are outside reasons, of which I shall not discuss.

No, you specifically said that music is demonic, thereby implying that it is in fact evil.

In the same tradition as Martin Luther with his 95 Theses, here are 107 Theses as written by Steven Camp. Camp (for those who don't know) was a contemporary Christian musician...but was really turned off by the way it was becoming more and more corrupt. He then proceeded to write these 107 Theses in rebuke. Camp was more or less run out of the industry because of it. 107 Theses The following is his opening statement, and selected points that I like. All 107 can be found at that link. A Call For Reformation in the Contemporary Christian Music Industry --Steven John Camp Christian Music Recording Artist Those of us who are privileged to represent our Lord Jesus Christ in the arts should be galvanized by mission, not by ambition; by mandate, not by accolades; by love for the Master, not by the allurements of this world. Out of love and zeal for Biblical truth and the desire to bring it to light, I come to you, brethren, burdened and broken over the current state of Christian music. I come--not out of a heart of condemnation, but out of convictions immersed in tears as one in desperate need daily of our Lord's grace to be conformed to His image. I come aware of the depravity from which I have been saved and that my heart, apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, is desperately wicked and eternally sick. Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused. But the Lord, out of His infinite grace and otherworldly love, broke me with His chastening hand to bring true repentance in my own life--and it's that life of repentance, which is my greatest desire and my greatest failing. It is out of the crucible of those experiences that I am driven to speak with conviction on these issues. This document is a call to Reformation-a clarion call to recover Biblical Christianity in the arts. Music is a powerful tool from the Lord Jesus to His church intended for worship, praise, encouragement, edification, evangelism, teaching, admonishing. And exhorting God's people to holiness--with always our chief aim "to glorify God and worship Him forever." But beloved, the serpentine foe of compromise has invaded the camp through years of specious living, skewed doctrine and most recently secular ownership of Christian music ministries. While I assert this, I recognize that there are godly men and women who love the Lord that work for these companies and record for these companies, but that's not the issue here. The crux of the matter is that the overall nature of our industry has dramatically shifted. The Apostle Paul warns... "It takes only a little leaven to leaven the whole lump." (1 Corinthians 5:6) When sin is tolerated it ultimately permeates and corrupts the entire church. What is pure today will inevitably be polluted tomorrow if we do not "purge out the old leaven..." (Ibid. 5:7) In the past several years there has been a non-so-subtle drifting away from Christocentric music to an anthropocentric music. Sadly this has resulted in various visible manifestations of spiritual sedition-- where currently, the CCMI finds itself on a slippery slope sliding away at accelerated speeds from the Savior, the Scriptures and the church. Contemporary Christian music originally began unashamedly declaring Jesus Christ as Lord. Within a few years His name was replaced by several generic titles filtering out the name of God ultimately to the non-specific cognomen, "Love." This led to a multitude of synonyms: "The Man Upstairs"; "My Higher Power"; "Our Family Values Expert"; ad nauseam...ad infinitum. This Biblical illiteracy I've coined as theological ebonics - Biblical language diminished to cultural unintelligible chatter affirmed as profound, acceptable spiritual truth. Os Guinness is "spot on" when saying "[we have seen a change] from the emphasis on 'serving God', to an emphasis on 'serving the self' in serving God." The object of faith is no longer Christ, but our self-esteem; the goal of faith is no longer holiness, but our happiness; and the source of our faith is no longer the Scriptures, but our experience. Christian music currently reflects this. We are producing a generation of people that "feel" their God, but do not know their God. When Martin Luther stood at Wittenberg's Door in the year 1517, he called for reformation from the recalcitrant Roman Church. Now is our turn, almost five centuries later, to sound the alarm in our generation. This time, to call the Christian Music Industry to reformation--back to the supremacy, sufficiency and Lordship of Jesus Christ. Genuine revival--a fresh return to obedience in Christ--is surely needed today, but that would be almost impossible given the current environment of our industry. Why? True revival is marked by repentance; true repentance brings restitution; true restitution demands that Christian music be owned and operated only by believers whose aim is the glory of God consistent with Biblical truth. This means that the current CCMI labels music return all the money they have received to their respective secular counterparts that purchased them and divorce alliances with them. The CCMI has gone too far down the wide road of worldliness and there is not the tenacity of character and the Biblical courage of heart and mind to do the right thing no matter what the cost. These are serious times, brethren, that call for real answers. This is not a time for duplicitous people, proclaiming a diluted message, from disingenuous ministries. It is a time for those whose lives are tempered with the steel of righteousness, girded with the belt of truth, standing firm in the gospel of peace, raising high their shield of faith, guarded with the helmet of salvation, to wield the sword of the Spirit with a surgeon's exactitude, praying always with all prayer and supplication, with all perseverance for all the saints in the Spirit. (Ephesians 6:10-20) Will we champion again the manifesto of the Reformers: Sola Fide (by faith alone); Sola Gratia (by grace alone); Sola Scriptura (on the Word alone); Solus Christus (because of Christ alone); and Soli Deo Gloria (to the Glory of God alone)? Do we have the conviction of heart and courage of mind to do what's just? Do we have the boldness to shout above the roar of the marketplace that the Emperor has no clothes? Will we leave our careers, our contracts, our carefully cultivated plans and press releases, our unequally yoked record companies to serve the Lord again with all our heart, soul, mind and strength? There is no gray in this--it's a matter of obedience. Oh brethren, "we have a name to be alive, but we are dead." (Revelation 3:1) There is no greater love song to proclaim than the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord at Calvary, but yet others feel content to sing about the chaff of this world. What the New Testament church wrestled with the least is what our industry craves the most--money. How dare we think we can play politics with God, with His truth and with His church. We can't negotiate with sin no matter what kind of capital is at stake--and that really is the issue here. Let us "press on, that [we] which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of [us]." (Philippians 3:12) Let us "lay aside every weight, and the sin that so easily ensnares us and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1) Let us fall on our faces before our Holy Lord, repent of our sin and return to our First Love. With lives bathed in His grace, let us provoke one another to love and good works. With undivided hearts may we leave the prodigal's pigpen and come back to the Father's house. Let us commit to prayer and fasting, seeking the Lord's will with a broken, contrite and obedient heart. Let us return to our churches and to the faithful pastors/elders that shepherd us-submitting ourselves to their godly leadership. May we be students of His Word being filled daily with His Spirit. Let us come away from an industry that has all but abandoned Christ and forge, by God's grace, what it was always meant to be ... a ministry. Doing His work, His way, according to His Word, by His Holy Spirit. Pray on this, Pounding on "Wittenberg's Door", let us come together to make history- to make Contemporary Christian Music...Christian again. Yours for the Master's use, Signed: Steve Camp 2 Corinthians 4:5 Those are selected points that I liked. He elaborates on many other aspects in the whole set of Theses.

You keep insisting on this "evilness". PROVE that these Christians are hostile, bitter, and hateful. You just claim that they do all of these things. What the cheese do you know about these people, and what the cheese do you know about Joel and I that grants you even a miniscule amount of evidence towards that claim? Prove it. And if you fail to do so, then it only stands (both logically and debate-wise) that your argument is not only 1 - unfounded, but 2 - wrong, and 3 - should be retracted.

You wants lyrics with the word "Jesus" and "God" in it, without any implications? Fine. Here. These bands are ALL Christian Hxc, by the way. There is no other way To explain for what He has done He came to me in such a holy way, Such a way that I would die for it. It is more than just a belief, He lives in my heart. How else can I explain it to you Jesus Christ. --Zao, Song 1 Spirit fall on this land, Convicting power cleansing man Reveal your truth to blind eyes, Rip the scales from their sight Holy Spirit be thee praised Arise, be made new In the fullness of His truth Repent and believe by His power You'll be free Anointing fall on this place, Spirit of God We give you praise, We give you praise, We give you praise, We give you... --Living Sacrifice, Spirit Fall I thank you Lord for the grace you've shown me Sometimes I just don't know why, Because there's no creature ever so more wretched than I, And I will bow down with my face to the floor from all those times that I've searched for something more, But I will dry those tears and hold my head up high, Cause I stand a conquerer in Jesus name. Why God did I deserve Your love These gifts I have I don't deserve Your love You came to die for me and I hung You from a tree And now I see the light shine through You'll come to take me home with You This cup of grace is overflowed I could never give back what You sowed --Point of Recognition, I Don't Deserve You I cried out to God for help I cried out to God to hear me When I was distressed, I sought the Lord At night I stretched out my hand But I can not be comforted I remember You God and I groaned I mused and my spirit grew faint You kept my eyes from closing I was too troubled to speak I thought about my former days the years long ago I remember my songs in the night My heart mused and my spirit inquired Will the Lord reflect forever Will He never show his favor again Has this unfailing love vanished forever Has His promise failed for all time Has God forgotten to be merciful Has the anger withheld His compassion Then I thought To this I will appeal The years of the right hand of the Most High I will remember the deeds of the Lord Yes, I remember Your miracles of land ago I will meditate on all Your works And consider all Your mighty deeds Your ways, oh God, are holy What god is so great as our God. --Zao, Ps77 Are these blatant enough for you? Do they praise God enough for you? Because I honestly don't see how singing a Psalm can be interepreted in any other fashion besides in a Chrisitan context. -Their lives are spent with thier families and with God. -Shawn Jonas became a youth pastor -Yes, they are continuing in the Word. They even continue in the Word when they're on tour. Some of the guys do studies when they have downtime and are discipled by their pastors. They also pray before their shows.

Don't question my walk, nor the ways in which music has helped my faith. That is probably the biggest offense I will take personally. I'm out. It's all you guys.