ksalzar

I disagree with your understanding of these accounts. Perhaps instead of making a lengthy reply to them I could redirict your attention to some relevant verses. Could you give me an explanation of the following?

Trinity I do not wish to spam, which is what I would be doing if I responded to everyone of those point by point. You mentioned John 10 as a support for Jesus being God, could you reply to my points made as a rebuttle on John 10? I think that is as good a starting point as any.

In reply:

Understood.

It is interesting to note that right after the verses quoted above from James 5 we see this example used: Which is tied in with what I have already put forwarded concerning what Jesus said: James is known as a practical book. I do not think James point is that everyone will be healed physically on this earth, for that is in direct contrast to what Jesus said. A prime example would be Jesus in the garden praying not to die on the cross, praying to be spared of this suffering. That prayer was not answered, and we know that Jesus submitted to the Father's will. Surely if there was a person who's prayer would be answered based on their faith we agree it was Jesus. My point is that, as I said ealrier, it is good to pray to be healed and have people pray for you to be healed; but it is not always God's will.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. James 5:13-14 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. On the one hand you say the NT was FOR BACK THEN. Then you want me to supply BIBLICAL ANSWERS FOR NOW? If the above is NOT sufficient, then take it up with God. The Pastor in question is DENYING what the scriptures are very clear about. He should be thrown out of the ministry, but since that is nigh on impossible, then the saints of God WHO BELIEVE, should LEAVE. Jesus said: Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Blessings, Dad Ernie The subject in question is whether or not the power to heal which was given through the holy spirit by Christ to the disciples continued on unto today. I said nothing of the NT not being aplicable today, perhaps you misunderstood me. So according to James 5 every person who has a person of faith pray over them will always be healed? Is this what you are saying?

Are there any accounts in the Bible of God doing miracles through people who do not have faith in Him?

The christadelphian forums on which I discussed this issue of Jesus being God and pre-existing I have found to be very respectful and very biblical. I personally believe I should be able to defend my faith which is why I began posting on this particular christadelphian forum. After all, they didn't believe Jesus was God! As it turns out I could not defend this position and they could defend their position very well. I do not want to post a link to that forum just because I'm not sure that would be appropriate, but if you would like a link to check it out I could post it. You would find that their forum is very knowledgeable, respectfull, and truth seeking. While I do not agree with them on other issues at this point, I agree with their position on christology and the trinity. They have articles addressing most(if not all) of the major trinitarian arguments which are commonly put forth, for example all of the arguments put forth above by "trinity". If you would like to know more detail on my position, reading their articles on specific passages such as Col 1:15-22, Phil 2:5-8, John 1:1-14, Heb 1, Gen 1:26, Rev, Isa 7, etc., would be a good place to start. I do not want to just post all these answer to the common proof passages of the trinity though, as that would be non-productive. What I would like to do is discuss these passages one at a time. My point for doing this is two-fold. 1) To give trinitarians a chance to bring me back to teach me biblicaly why the trinity is true, so that if it is the truth I may again find it. 2) To present unitarian understanding of these passages so that if these are true you may have a chance to gain this truth. My honest purpose is for us to better seek the truth, whichever way is correct. The post that "trinity" made above would be productive if I had not researched these issues before, because it would let me know the starting points of the major passages that are relevant to the issue. Since I have studied these before, the post is not that productive for me, it will be more productive to talk in more detail about each passage specifically, one by one. -Respectfully Kyle

Agreed, thank you for this productive question. I started this thread stating that I grew up baptist and have since diverged from that doctrine on the issue of the trinity and christology. About a year ago I started to struggle with this doctrinal issue while discussing it online with a group of people labeled christadelphians. After much grief and anguish over the subject, after all I cannot think of a more important doctrine concerning a christian than ones christology, I have come to a different conclusion than that of my baptist upbringing. Specifically I do not believe the Bible teaches Jesus pre-existed other than in the mind of God. I also do not believe the Bible teaches Jesus is God, the second person of the trinity. Basically I am a biblical unitarian, which is quite different from a universal unitarian. What that means is that I believe God the Father is the One True God. I do not think everyone will be saved or that we all will become God or any thing like that which is commonly associated with universal unitarians. I do still consider myself a christian. I believe the Bible is God's inerent word, and that Jesus is the Son of God who was crucified and raised from the dead. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is the only name given under heaven by which we must be saved. Again thank you for a very honest and appropriate question.

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes: The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence. This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity. I wouldn't call it a doctrine for I have not compaired it to all scripture,,,,, but I'm working on it Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed. Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him. So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament. Looking further: It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning. It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh. Further: It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth. Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body. It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father and the Father know us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit is a grave mistake. I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus. Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father. I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit sent by the Father and is so Special it is not safe to discuss it's properties. These things are my personal beliefs over a very long time of reading and listening to the Bible and much pondering and Prayer. The scriptures I quote here are just a few that express what I learned from many. If this helps to understand the relationship of the three good, if not pay no attention to me at all. It is as I say just my belief. Greetings other one. I'm not sure that Philippians 2 and John 1:1 support the conclusion that Jesus pre-existed. This is why I disagree with your understanding. I would like to discuss both of these passages with you if you are interested so we can learn each others p.o.v. better and perhaps learn something about God's word(that is the Bible, not the pre-existent Jesus Christ ) in the process.

For those who have been given a ministerial obligation, such as Pastor, they are also subject to a greater responsibility AND judgment at the Bema Seat of Christ. Certainly, I have yet to find "the perfect church", and there appears to be less and less of them. I glean a lot from such men as Hank Hannagraff, Charles Swindoll, Woodrow Kroll, R. C. Sproul, D. James Kennedy, yet they each have some point(s) upon which I believe they fail the true meanings of the scriptures. Yet, I have been to many DEAD churches. One in particular that I attended in Washington state, as my wife and I sat in the pew to a DEAD, DEAD, DEAD message, I looked over the congregation AND in with my "spiritual eyes", I SAW it was full of DEAD CORPSES. I say to those who have "left the true Gospel of Jesus Christ" FLEE THOSE CHURCHES, find one that teaches and preaches as Christ or HIS disciples preached and taught. We have so many recorded MIRACLES and miraculous healings in the Bible, it takes only a FOOL to deny that they exist today. YES, I HAVE PRAYED ABOUT IT. And it turns out God is RIGHT. Blessings, Dad Ernie Hmm, call me a foolish skeptic then. Do I think God can heal people of physical illnesses today, most definitely. Do I think God could give specific people the ability to heal others of their physical illnesses today, most definitely. Have I seen this in my experience, no. Now My point was not to cause problems, only to point us back to scripture. I just want to make sure that we are giving biblical support for our responses to help out here. Perhaps you could defend your position on this issue biblically to me, so that I may learn from you. I think this would be much more productive than a statement such as: If you notice we are not in the day that the New Testament took place. Your jump is without support here, I'm not saying it's wrong. I just want you to support your position biblically. Also just because the minister put forth this as his position on this particular issue does not mean that this specific church is "spiritually dead" as you put it. Which was my whole point, that we should not jump to conclusions to fast.

Aww, I thought we were here to edify and learn about God's word. I'm not sure blowing me out of the water is the goal. Perhaps you would all be willing to talk through each of these passages one by one with me. Let's pick one and start there. As it stands I have put forth a few responses for a few of those passages, responses which I feel are very honest questions. Instead of throwing the same passages back at me, perhaps we could discuss those passages and my objections as to why they may not prove that Jesus is God. The prime example I am thinking of is John 10:30. I have already put forth a few objections to a person using that to prove Jesus is one in essence with God. Perhaps you all could address those objections for me?

Greetings ksalzar, Trinity might be amazed, but I agree with HIM. Here are additional verses to add to his already good collection: Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 11:25-27 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. All of these with the exception of the doubting Thomas passage, simply say that Jesus is the Son of God. Which I agree Jesus is the Son of God. The issue I am bringing up is where is the biblical basis for Jesus being "God the Son" the second person of the trinity. As for the doubting Thomas verse, Jesus says something relevant to that in John 10. John 10:33-36 33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken - 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? Here Jesus points us to the other men who are called God, yet we know they are not the One True God. My point is that the word "God" which is applied to Jesus by Thomas is also used of other men who are not God, as Jesus himself points out in John 10. None of this gives me a biblical basis for knowing Jesus is the One True God. Next you have put forth this verse: Rev 1:5-8 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood I don't see anything saying that Jesus is the One True God in this verse6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. I don't see anythign saying that Jesus is the One True God in this verse. Here I see it said that the FAther is God, morever the God of Jesus.7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. Nothing about Jesus being the One True God in this verse.8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation started off saying "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants". Jesus is speaking what God has given him. This verse 8 seems to be applied to God the Father as I understand it, for nowhere else is Jesus referred to as the Almighty God. You close with this statement: This is why we believe in the "trinity of God", because each of these "persons" are represented separately and individually, yet are completely ONE. There is BUT ONE GOD who is eternal, the Alpha and Omega. I have not seen any scriptual support put forth yet that shows these three are one in essence. I agree that there is One God who is eternal. I know of no verses in the Bible which attribute the quality of being eternal to Jesus. I know of a verse where Jesus states the the Father is self-existent and he himself is not. John 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. Jesus lives because of the living Father.

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes: The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence. This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity. I wouldn't call it a doctrine for I have not compaired it to all scripture,,,,, but I'm working on it Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed. Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him. So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament. Looking further: It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning. It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh. Further: It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth. Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body. It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father and the Father know us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit is a grave mistake. I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus. Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father. I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the actual Spirit of Jesus and is so Special it is not safe to discuss it's properties. These things are my personal beliefs over a very long time of reading and listening to the Bible and much pondering and Prayer. The scriptures I quote here are just a few that express what I learned from many. If this helps to understand the relationship of the three good, if not pay no attention to me at all. It is as I say just my belief. interesting stuff, I disagree with you on much of it. I do not have time to respond at this moment, but I will after a while and I hope that we can both learn alot from each other through an honest look at scripture.

I will respond to this when I get a chance, until then I would just like to take this chance to say thank you for your responses. Please understand that I grew up trinitarian and I may be a bit challenging to talk to, so be patient. Also I would like to take this opportunity to ask everyone to consider the points I will make honestly. The reality is we are all seeking the truth. I have been perfectly willing to accept the trinity as biblical growing up, my question to you all is if the trinity turns out to not be biblical will you be willing to submit to that? With that said, I hope to have good, edifying discussions of this with you all. -Kyle

This may or may not be appropriate. You need to pary about it and figure out what God wants. If you leave every church that teaches you incorrectly or handles things incorrectly you will end up churchless until Jesus return. For no church is perfect, the correct decision might also be to stay at this church and serve it by stimulating a better study of God's word. We are not at church only to be fed, but also to feed.

Good questions. I'm not sure of the answer, and I have researched it some. Continue to study the biblical verses dealing with this issue. Be careful about answer people give you if they cannot support them from Scripture. I know that I have not personally healed anyone to date by God's power, so I do not have this gift. Paul also said: Paul said these things will cease. The reality is God can heal people today, but I have not seen it done through a specific individual myself, as it is recorded that the Apostles did. Jesus pointed out how God does not work miracles in this sense for everyone: It is good to pray to be healed, and to pray to receive the gift of healing. But it we must remain in submission to God's will, and as Jesus pointed out it is not God's will to heal everyone physically and give everyone these specific gifts. Sincerely, Kyle.

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes: The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence.

Perhaps you could explain to me your points with these verses trinity. I don't see how these prove Jesus is God. Or that the concept of the trinity is biblical.

As you look into this and decide make sure you don't just stop at 4 or 5 verses, but look through all them. You might need to read the entire bible to be sure for yourself. I did this many years ago and decided that I no longer believed in the standard description of the "Trinity". That the three exists is true and and easily found in all scripture. However you will find many scriptures that will tell you that they are not all three equal. Also not all knowing, for only the Father knows when Christ will return, Not man, nor angels, The Son, nor the Spirit. Also when Jesus promised us the Spirit when he left he made it plain that the Spirit would tell us all things, but not on His own, but would only tell us the things he heard, or was told. Not all knowing for the Son or the Spirit. It is a very difficult subject to discuss unless you cover all scripture at once. It is my personal belief that any doctrine should agree with all scripture or the doctrine should be changed to agree with all scripture or scrapped as a whole. I completely agree.

You are right, he did say that. But what is the context of that statement in John 10 cymba?

Russell had posted this statement in a thread on Judas Iscariot in the Controversey section of these forums: Since I cannot post in that thread, and it is a doctrinal issue, I decided I would answer that by starting a new topic. Let's look at Leviticus 1:3 and Leviticus 19:5 as an answer to your question: Free will offerings are mentioned in the Old Testament. There is free will. Next Russell said: Pharaoh in the Exodus account is the best place to start I think. The reason is it is the most detailed account we have of how God works hardening peoples heart. Furthermore it is the account which the Apostle Paul appeals to in Romans 9 as a display of how God works his will. In the Exodus account what we see is that Pharaoh is attributed with hardening his own heart many times before it is said that the LORD hardens Pharaoh's heart. Which is perfectly inline with the New Testament witness of how God hardens peoples heart. Namely that people first refuse to love the truth, and then God hardens their heart: Examples could be multiplied, but it is noteworthy to do a study of the account of Pharaoh in Exodus and see that he hardened his own heart many times to God's command prior to God hardening his heart. Which fits in perfectly with the verses I have just quoted which are the New Testament witness to how God hardens hearts. Furthermore we have quotes from the book of Job as to how God works which I will save for another time. Sincerely- Kyle.

Thank you for your response. The points you made I have looked at and they do not lead me to the conclusion that Jesus is God. The reason is that if one does a study of those points you will find the following: As for Jesus being Omniscient: As for Jesus being Omnipotent: Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Bible tells us it was the Father: This quote shows Jesus is not all powerfull. As for glory: Here we are told that the same glory the Father has given Jesus, Jesus has given us. I'm sure we both agree this does not make us God. Another point that has caused me to leave the doctrine of the trinity is an attribute of God which you have not mentioned. God is also self-existent. Yet Jesus tells us he is not: Here Jesus tells us that the Father is self-existent saying "the living Father", and he also tells us that he is not self-existent. Rather he lives because of the living Father.

Hello This is my first post on this forum, hello to you all. I grew up baptist and have recently started to diverge from my childhood doctrine. Specifically I am diverging on the issue of Christology, the trinity. Is there biblical support for this doctrine?