O'Dannyboy Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 156 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,454 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1969 Share Posted February 10, 2009 'Buy American' -- or Bye-Bye America by Patrick J. Buchanan I have to say I don't disagree. We are all aware of the impact of job outsourcing and dependence on foreign resources as a result of the "global" mindset. Don't get me wrong. Trade is a good thing when it enhances both respective economies but when one prospers more than the other the relationship is doomed to fail. I have been saying this all along. We need to be IN-dependent if we are to prosper as our nation once did. We were the envy of the world but along came the socialists/globalists. Products and goods were purchased on the cheap causing our own producers and manufacturers to fail as a result. And so begins the age of dependence. Long ago nations traded goods that were not available anywhere else but today goods are imported because the cost difference can make men wealthy. Worse is that our government has facilitated such dependence through laws, taxes and regulations that favored the foreign markets. We need to reclaim our independence before it's too late. Let those who have benefited the most become independent as well as we return to making the things we need and importing only luxury items that we cannot make for ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortstop Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 47 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2009 WOW! That was a great article.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2009 I disagree with Pats assertions. The reason there is a trade deficit is because of technological advances. Everybody wants to "buy American" but nobody wants to take the minimum wage jobs that produce the goods we are buying from places like China. The reason we buy so much stuff from China is because America has far surpassed making cheap toys and food. America is a technological leader...not a plastic toy leader. A trade deficit is not necessarily bad...and it is certainly no cause to become a protectionist like Pat Buchanan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Dannyboy Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 156 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,454 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1969 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html The trade deficit is not imaginary and we trade with nations other than China. The trade deficit is not a number that represents specific debt but a deficiency in the amount of goods/products we sell versus those we buy. We in the U.S. buy 40 billion dollars worth of goods more than we sell to those same free trade partners. How many jobs and related expenses do you think 40 billion dollars a year would cover? That 40 billion represents the wages for jobs lost to foreign markets. This is not protectionist. If there were no deficit we could still be trading freely with these other economies and nations only we wouldn't be on the loosing end. The gap must be closed. It's not protectionism to want trade numbers to be balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2009 It is a very good day when Axe and I can agree on a subject. See...I'm not all bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2009 http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html The trade deficit is not imaginary and we trade with nations other than China. The trade deficit is not a number that represents specific debt but a deficiency in the amount of goods/products we sell versus those we buy. We in the U.S. buy 40 billion dollars worth of goods more than we sell to those same free trade partners. How many jobs and related expenses do you think 40 billion dollars a year would cover? That 40 billion represents the wages for jobs lost to foreign markets. This is not protectionist. If there were no deficit we could still be trading freely with these other economies and nations only we wouldn't be on the loosing end. The gap must be closed. It's not protectionism to want trade numbers to be balanced. We had a trade surplus when this country slipped into the Great Depression. Again, a deficit is not necessarily a bad thing when dealing with trade. I have a trade deficit with my local grocery store too..lol. My point is that we are trading in much higher quality goods than China can hope to compete with...do we really want to go back down to China's level so that we can compete with them and make a balance? I say no. We used to be the world leader in manufactured goods and one of the leaders in food production. We progressed technologically and we allowed China to take over those low wage, low economic productions while we advanced. Having a $40 billion dollar deficit to buy low level manufactured goods from somebody isn't that bad. It allows the majority of our country to advance in productivity in more advanced areas. Fact is, the US has a trade surplus with 115 countries who are trading in things far more important than food and knick-knacks. I see no reason to go backwards and start manufacturing things we can buy just so that we show a surplus. Ask yourself this...why is it that when the US economy shrinks, the trade deficit narrows. Last month (January) the trade deficit fell by 27%...sure that looks good on paper, but the reality is that it underscores the weakness of the economy...and especially the US dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Dannyboy Posted February 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 156 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,454 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1969 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Fact is, the US has a trade surplus with 115 countries who are trading in things far more important than food and knick-knacks. I see no reason to go backwards and start manufacturing things we can buy just so that we show a surplus. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the concept of things that are "far more important" than food. I also have an issue with the whole "why produce that which we can just buy" philosophy. My question is. Buy with what? Borrowed money? Think of the deficit as a cash flow indicator. 40 billion dollars a year has been flowing to other nations that does not get spent on U.S. products, high tech or not. This is the reason our nation is in this crisis. Why fix this or do that when we can pay someone else to do it. Along come the illegals and even more U.S. jobs are scooped up by those willing to WORK for a living. Sadly it seems Americans in general feel as you do. We are too important to make our own toys so we should buy them from some less important country. I am too busy to mow my lawn or clean my pool so I'll just pay the illegal immigrant to do it. And as we have noticed, a large percentage of people in this country are in debt. Perhaps not debilitating debt, but debt non the less. Multiply that debt times the number of Americans in it then pile on the Government spending and charitable giving to other nations around the world. Our nation, like it's people, have become accustomed to living with a degree of debt never fully intending to be free from it. It's the debt that leads us to dependence. The very same dependence that causes people to endure jobs they are unhappy with just as our leaders accept trade conditions that are not completely fair but the more we borrow the more we owe as the interest compounds. (article) Americans are 'financially illiterate' Lets use the sub prime loan crisis as an example. This crisis is not totally the fault of the mortgage industry. Someone had to sign the dotted line. The same someones who wanted their dream home without FIRST having worked and saved the money to buy it. (article) Americans living beyond their means When I spend more than I make I go into debt. The same principle also applies to our nation. When we spend more than we earn we go in debt. Similarly when we produce less than we consume we go into debt. Action - reaction. We can't gloss it over with (we produce high tech stuff so we can't be bothered with growing our own food). This does not change the fact that we consume (buy) more than we make so the deficit then leads to debt then leads to dependence. Pretty simple. Our budget is not balanced. Many politicians give lip service to "balancing the budget" but as we can see that has not been a priority. With ever dollar we and our leaders spend that is not backed by a product, resource or service we sacrifice our freedom and that of our children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted February 11, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2009 I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the concept of things that are "far more important" than food. I also have an issue with the whole "why produce that which we can just buy" philosophy. My question is. Buy with what? Borrowed money? Think of the deficit as a cash flow indicator. 40 billion dollars a year has been flowing to other nations that does not get spent on U.S. products, high tech or not. This is the reason our nation is in this crisis. Why fix this or do that when we can pay someone else to do it. Along come the illegals and even more U.S. jobs are scooped up by those willing to WORK for a living. Sadly it seems Americans in general feel as you do. We are too important to make our own toys so we should buy them from some less important country. I am too busy to mow my lawn or clean my pool so I'll just pay the illegal immigrant to do it. And as we have noticed, a large percentage of people in this country are in debt. Perhaps not debilitating debt, but debt non the less. Multiply that debt times the number of Americans in it then pile on the Government spending and charitable giving to other nations around the world. Our nation, like it's people, have become accustomed to living with a degree of debt never fully intending to be free from it. It's the debt that leads us to dependence. The very same dependence that causes people to endure jobs they are unhappy with just as our leaders accept trade conditions that are not completely fair but the more we borrow the more we owe as the interest compounds. (article) Americans are 'financially illiterate' Lets use the sub prime loan crisis as an example. This crisis is not totally the fault of the mortgage industry. Someone had to sign the dotted line. The same someones who wanted their dream home without FIRST having worked and saved the money to buy it. (article) Americans living beyond their means When I spend more than I make I go into debt. The same principle also applies to our nation. When we spend more than we earn we go in debt. Similarly when we produce less than we consume we go into debt. Action - reaction. We can't gloss it over with (we produce high tech stuff so we can't be bothered with growing our own food). This does not change the fact that we consume (buy) more than we make so the deficit then leads to debt then leads to dependence. Pretty simple. Our budget is not balanced. Many politicians give lip service to "balancing the budget" but as we can see that has not been a priority. With ever dollar we and our leaders spend that is not backed by a product, resource or service we sacrifice our freedom and that of our children. Hey Brother...you just switched topics. Your comments about a "balanced budget" are spot on, for the most part. I would disagree with a few minor details, but I don't wish to discuss a "balanced budget" at this time. You initiated this topic by discussing the trade deficit. The $40 billion dollar trade deficit is a drop in the bucket in the US budget. It would cost this country way more than $40 billion dollars to start producing all the food and toys and goods we buy from Mexico and China (and others) ...especially once you got the unions involved telling us we had to pay people $15/hr to do it. You are basically making the argument that Walmart (i.e. countries we are in deficit with) is making too much money off of us...so we should start growing our own food and making our own toys...and you justify it by saying you can't really fit Walmart into your budget because you have too much debt. I'm saying, Walmart is providing a service that we must fit into the budget because it would cost too much to produce those goods on our own...whatever debts I've amassed have nothing to do with my need to buy supplies. If I need to cut back it won't be on my food and goods (i.e. Walmart.) Our debt as a Nation has almost NOTHING to do with the trade deficit. Look at the spending bill that Obama is getting ready to pass...$40 billion dollars doesn't even warrant a *sigh* compared to that. Also I completely disagree with the notion that our "crisis" is a result of the trade deficit. The US budget for 2008 was $2,700B, I think we can spare the $40B in trade deficits for low production manufacturing and foods. I'll bet we could both come up with about 100 other various things that we could cut out of the US budget besides the trade deficit, that are more expensive and unneeded. The food, clothes, and whatever other things we buy from foreign countries are things we can afford. This issue goes so much deeper than "who buys more from whom"...as I'm certain you would agree. I am curious about your throwing in the "illegals stealing American jobs" angle though. Are you saying you'd be willing to pay twice as much for goods and services? I would say that if buying foreign products bothers somebody that much...then don't buy those products. Nobody is forcing people to buy Chinese products...however, at the same time people like Pat Buchanan shouldn't be trying to drag this country's productivity back into the 1930's either. 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O'Dannyboy Posted February 11, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 156 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,454 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1969 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think you miss the point all together. We, as a nation, have more going out than is coming in. Therein lies our problem. Regardless what we are spending the money on we are spending more than we make. As I heard it this morning our GDP is shrinking and we are now borrowing money at an alarming rate. How can we possibly hope to escape this debt? Interestingly the country to whom we have the largest trade deficit is also the one from whom our government has been borrowing money. I also heard this morning that our national parks are being surveyed and counted as collateral against these loans our leaders are taking. It seems this could be why Bush was trying to sell our ports. To pay off debts. Unless we as a nation begin making more than we spend we will never be out of debt. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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