WN: Lutherans to Vote on Sexually Active Gay Clergy - Washington Post

[Guest]

.... One can think of the bible as the medium through which the Word of God is transmitted ....

.... The Bible does not contain the Word of God, it is the Word of God ....

Amen!

And The Whole Bible From Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:1

Throught Revelation 22:20

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:20

Is About The LORD Jesus Christ

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:39

Bless His Holy Name

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

[Guest shiloh357]

See what you're doing here? You don't want to think that maybe homosexual attraction is not sin but temptation, and that God might not deliver it from you if you ask.

God calls it sin. To believe what you suggest is to call God a liar. God promises to deliver from all spiritual bondage, and to say otherwise is to call God a liar. So you are basically assaulting God's character twice. You are the one who said this is your orientation, and so by your own admittance, this not simply temptation.

So it's much easier to say that there's something wrong in my life, even though you don't have a clue who I am.

Well, the problem is with either you or God. God does not lie or break His promises, so that leaves you.

Maybe I don't have enough faith... but the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Maybe I don't really want to change, or I haven't asked. What about all the nights I have spent crying and begging God to deliver me?

What about all the other variables that might be involved and influences and other things in your life that hinder any chance of deliverance? What about all the stuff you have not surrendered to the Lord?

Yes, God is faithful to His word. He has promised that although we will be tempted, with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape, so that we'll be able to bear it. And always, He has done that. I'm not perfect, but in this area I've chosen obedience... not instead of temptation, but in spite of it.

If it were a simple matter of temptation, that would be one thing, but that is not what is at issue. Temptation is part of the Christian experience, and will always be there. Asking God to never be tempted is not a scripturally based request. I would also add that temptation is quite often self-induced. James tells us that each man is tempted when by his own evil desires he is dragged away and enticed. It means you have issues or associations in your life that give place to temptation that end up leaving you vulnerable to it.

Again, the problem is not with God.

[Guest LadyC]

Dear Father, in Jesus' name, I ask that you shut the mouths of all lying spirits, and I ask You to bind the spirits of homosexuality and lesbianism and cast them away from Your people.

In Jesus' name

amen!

[PhoenixJLD]

So just to be clear here Shiloh, you are saying that not only is homosexual activity a sin but even feeling homosexual desire is?

Evidently. Which makes all desire sin, and 1 Corinthians 10:13 a lie.

[~candice~]

So just to be clear here Shiloh, you are saying that not only is homosexual activity a sin but even feeling homosexual desire is?

I can't answer for Shiloh, but I can answer for myself...

The homosexual orientation is a desire that does not come from Him. As a christian, the plead of our hearts is to be completely in the will of God, transformed into His image, aligned with Him, desiring what He desires and abhoring what He abhores. So it really doesn't matter what you call it. It isn't of Him and really ought to be purged. And I think I just answered my own question . Arrggh.

[Guest shiloh357]

You are absolutely right that is not what it means. But you DID say "the word of God". Now if someone says "the word of Nazorai" does not that mean my direct words???

No, that is what it means.

1Cr 7:10 Now to the married I command, [yet] not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from [her] husband.

1Cr 7:11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to [her] husband. And a husband is not to divorce [his] wife.

1Cr 7:12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.

Paul is constantly referencing the teachings of Jesus in His letter to the Corinthians. What Paul is saying is that He does not have a commandment from Jesus on the issue, as Jesus did not directly address the issue in during His ministry. Paul ends that chapter affirming that the advice He gave was under the direction of the Holy Spirit, therefore all of it was inspired.

You can *believe* whatever you want. What I have asked for is the scripture that backs up your belief.

It is almost a waste of time trying to give you Scripture since you don't believe the Bible anyway, but here goes. The New Testament affirms that all of the OT is Scripture and is of divine origin.

The following is excerpted from "A General Introduction to The Bible by Norman Geisler

General Claim that the Whole New Testament Is Spirit-Directed

Outstanding passages. There are two outstanding passages that bear on this point and several others that lend their support. In 2 Peter 1:20-21 it is made clear that all prophetic Scripture comes as men are "moved by the Holy Spirit." The reference here is to the Old Testament writings, which have already been seen to be the unbreakable oracles of God (cf. Heb. 5:12). However, because New Testament writers also claimed to be giving prophetic utterances and writings, it follows that they considered their writings to be just as Spirit-directed as the Old Testament writings. Some New Testament writers make a direct claim that their writings are prophetic. In Revelation 22 John is grouped with the Old Testament prophets (v. 9) and he concludes his own message by saying, "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book" (v. 18). The apostle Paul identifies his revelation of the mystery of Christ as even superior to that of the Old Testament (cf. Eph. 3:5). The writer of Hebrews also identifies his book in line with the revelation through the Old Testament prophets, saying, "God... spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets... in these last days [He] has spoken to us in His Son" (Heb. 1:1), to whose message one must take heed because "it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard [namely, the apostles], God also bearing witness... by gifts of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 2:3-4). Hence, the ministry and writings of the New Testament writers are no less prophetic than those of their Old Testament counterparts.

New Testament books considered to be Scripture. Peter refers to Paul's writings as "Scripture" (2 Pet. 3:16), and 1 Timothy 5:18 quotes from Luke 10:7 and Deuteronomy 25:4 under the one phrase "for the Scripture says." If the writings of Luke, who was not an apostle, are quoted as Scripture and Peter, who incidentally was rebuked by Paul (Gal. 2:11), considered Paul's books to be Scripture, then it is not difficult to conceive how the New Testament as a whole would be considered to be Scripture. And, because 2 Timothy 3:16 declares that "all Scripture is inspired by God," it follows that the New Testament as a whole is inspired by God.

Specific claims. There are specific claims of apostolic authority in the New Testament that admit of a wide application. Paul told his sons in the faith to "prescribe" his teachings (1 Tim. 4:11) "with all authority" (Titus 2:15) and hinged his authority and even the veracity of the gospel itself on his apostleship (Gal. 1:1, 12). On another occasion Paul wrote, "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him" (2 Thess. 3:14). Likewise, Peter reminded the believers of apostolic authority, saying, "Remember... the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles" (2 Pet. 3:2). In effect, the authority of an apostle was the authority of Christ, and the only credential necessary to commend the authority of any particular writing was its apostolicity.

Books were to be circulated. One final consideration that manifests the high regard for New Testament writings by the first-century church is the fact that the books were commanded to be circulated, read in the churches, and collected. It is obvious that Peter had a collection of Paul's books (2 Pet. 3:15-16), and Paul distinctly enjoined the Colossians to read and circulate their epistle (Col. 4:16). The Thessalonians, too, were charged to read their epistle (1 Thess. 5:27). Such regard shows that the books had for them not only a spiritual value but a divine origin (cf. the Jews who read and preserved God's Word, Deut. 31:26).

In general, then, the New Testament writings as a whole claim to be "Scripture," "prophetic writings," authoritative and divine. This is the same as saying they are inspired of God.

Specific Claims that New Testament Books Are Inspired

Not only did Jesus promise divine guidance, and the New Testament as a whole claim to be the product of that guidance, but each individual New Testament book contains a claim to substantiate that position. A brief survey will suffice to support this point.

Matthew. This gospel begins, "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ," which, by linking Christ's lineage to the record of the Old Testament, is a tacit acknowledgment that this book is a continuation of messianic truth. In fact, there is implied in the repeated assertion that Christ is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (cf. 5:17-18, 21) that this book is an authoritative account of that fulfillment in Christ. The author closes his book with the command of Christ to teach the truth of Christ to all nations (28:18-20), which by implication is precisely what the book of Matthew is professing to do (cf. 10:7).

Mark. Mark is entitled "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet." Like Matthew, there is no explicit claim to authority; it is merely assumed throughout (cf. 13:11). Because Mark was associated with Peter (1 Pet. 5:13), many take Mark to be Peter's gospel.

Luke. This book has a statement about its own character. In his writing Luke claims that it is an authentic "account of the things accomplished [by God through Christ]" that Theophilus "might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught" (1:1, 4). Because Luke was closely associated with Paul, it has an apostolic connection as well.

John. John is likewise clear about the nature of his gospel, saying that it is written "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (20:31). He further adds, "This is the disciple who bears witness of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his witness is true" (21:24; cf. 14:26, 16:13).

Acts. As a continuation of Luke and of what Jesus "began to do and teach" (1:1), Acts claims to be an authentic record of the teaching (and working) of Christ through the apostles.

Romans. The author of this book claims it to be the work of an apostle of Jesus Christ (1:1). In 9:1 Paul says, "I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit." The final appeal of the epistle is not to accept any other doctrine than that which they have been taught, which would include, of course, the great teachings of this doctrinal book (16:17).

1 Corinthians. This book contains what "God revealed... through the Spirit" (2:10; cf. also 7:40). Besides making authoritative pronouncements on morals (5:1-3) and doctrine (15:15), Paul asserts, "The things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment" (14:37).

2 Corinthians. This book is introduced by an apostle of God (1:1), who strongly contests for his own authority (10:8; 12:12) and declares his lofty revelations from God (12:1-4).

Galatians. Galatians states the case for its author's divine authority as strongly as any book in the New Testament: "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men, nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father)" (1:1). "For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:12), and "even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed" (1:8).

Ephesians. This book, along with the claim to be written by an apostle (1:1), declares itself to be a revelation of the mystery of God, showing "that by revelation there was made known to me [Paul] the mystery" (3:3). Those who read it can gain "insight into the mystery of Christ" (3:4).

Philippians. Philippians not only comes as from an apostle and with the standard greetings "from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (1:2), but it further enjoins the readers to follow the moral example and spiritual teaching of its author, saying, "Brethren, join in following my example" (3:17). Again it says, "The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things" (4:9).

Colossians. Colossians also comes from "an apostle of Jesus Christ" (1:1), with greetings "from God our Father" (1:2), as an authoritative refutation of heresy (2:4, 8), with a command to be circulated and read in the churches (4:16).

1 Thessalonians. In 5:27, the author charges the church "to have this letter read to all the brethren" and in 4:15 says, "For we say to you by the word of the Lord."

2 Thessalonians. This book adds to its God-given pronouncements a warning about a false letter "as if from" Paul (2:2). It closes by saying, "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him" (3:14).

1 Timothy. Written by "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God" (1 Tim 1:1), this epistle speaks with authority, saying, "Prescribe and teach these things" (4:11).

2 Timothy. The author instructed his son in the faith to "retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me" (1:13), and he charged Timothy "in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus" to "preach the word" (4:1-2).

Titus. Titus also claims to come from Paul "an apostle of Jesus Christ" (1:1), with the injunction to "let these things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority" (2:15). He then adds, "Concerning these things I want you to speak confidently" (3:8).

Philemon. This brief book claims authority from the apostle Paul (v. 1), brings salutation "from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (v. 3), and asserts apostolic authority (v. 8).

Hebrews. The author of Hebrews introduces his message as the voice of God through Christ "in these last days" (1:2) and concludes his epistle with authoritative exhortations (13:22).

James. James writes as a "servant of God" (1:1) and speaks with authority about doctrine (cf. chap. 2) and practice (chap. 3).

1 Peter. This book is from "an apostle of Jesus Christ" (1:1) and claims to be an exhortation on "the true grace of God" (5:12).

2 Peter. Written by "a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ" (1:1), this epistle gives commandments from the Lord (3:2). The author claims to "have the prophetic word made more sure" (1:19) and gives a prophetic pronouncement about the future (3:10-13).

1 John. This book comes from an eyewitness (1:1) who is proclaiming Christ so that believers' "joy may be made complete" (1:4) and that the reader may be assured of eternal life (5:12).

2 John. In this book John purports to be writing a "commandment" (v. 5), warns against deceivers (v. 7), and claims to possess "the teaching of Christ" (v. 9).

3 John. This is written by one with apostolic authority (v. 9) who claims to have "the truth itself" (v. 12).

Jude. Jude claims to be a record of "our common salvation" and "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (v. 3).

Revelation. The Apocalypse, as its name appears in Greek, begins: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave" (1:1) through John, who considered himself to be one with the "prophets" (22:9). The book ends with the most severe warning in the Bible for anyone who "adds to" or "takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy" (22:18-19).

So virtually every book in the New Testament contains a claim for its own authority in one manner or another. The cumulative effect of this self-testimony is an overwhelming confirmation that the New Testament writers claimed inspiration.

Sometimes 1 Corinthians 7:10-12 is used to deny this position. In that passage Paul writes, "To the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord___ To the rest I say, not the Lord." It is argued that Paul is here giving his own opinion and not an authoritative pronouncement. However, it should be observed that Paul probably meant merely to say that Jesus said nothing explicitly about the subject at hand during His earthly ministry. Hence, Paul had to say, "I have no command [epitagēn] of the Lord, but I give an opinion" (7:25). His opinion, however, was inspired. Paul said, "I also have the Spirit of God" (7:40). Jesus said to His disciples before His death, "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:12-13). The inspired advice of Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 is apparently an example of the fulfillment of that promise. In fact, Paul later said in the same epistle, "The things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment" (1 Cor. 14:37). These things are within the province of the process (2 Pet. 1:20-21) and product (2 Tim. 3:16-17) of inspiration.

Summary and Conclusion

The claim for inspiration in the New Testament is derived from the fact that Jesus promised His disciples that He would guide them into "all the truth" by the Holy Spirit. The New Testament writers claimed the fulfillment of that promise for their oral message and for their writings. They claimed that their oral message was: (1) on the same level as the Old Testament messages of the prophets; (2) the foundation of the New Testament church; (3) authoritative for the church. They also claimed to be directed by the Holy Spirit in their writings, which they held to be: (1) prophetic; (2) sacred Scripture; (3) divinely authoritative; and (4) commanded to be read and circulated in the churches (see Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27). Furthermore, when a survey is made of all of the books of the New Testament, a claim is found in each individual book for its own divine origin and authority, either directly or indirectly.

[Guest shiloh357]

So just to be clear here Shiloh, you are saying that not only is homosexual activity a sin but even feeling homosexual desire is?

The Bible teaches that sin begins in the heart. The desire to sin is just as sinful as committing the act. Lusting after a married woman is just as sinful as if you had carried the act out in the flesh.

The Bible makes no distinction between the two, really. Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God and therefore, it is sin to desire the opposite sex as it is to carry out the desire.

According to the Bible, not only should we not carry out sin, but there should not be anything in our heart to prompt it in the first place. So yes, having the feelings and the orientation is as sinful as acting on them.

[Guest LadyC]

this kind of goes back to labels, doesn't it? phoenix, are you a new creation in Christ or are you a homosexual? you can't be both. you can NOT wear both labels. if you are a new creature in Christ, then the homosexual label needs to be thrown in the garbage heap and never be put on again. that is the very first step to letting go, and letting God. in other words, it's the first step to taking every thought captive to Christ.

now.... shiloh is right. homosexual DESIRE is a sin. do you still have DESIRES? or do you simply have an attraction that you have to daily submit to Christ so that it does not become a desire? because as i have been reading your posts, i get the impression that you feel attractions but no desire to act upon it. maybe i'm wrong on that. please clarify.

and if my impression is correct, then again, throw out the gay label you're wearing. as a christian, you can count on satan always throwing temptation in your path, EVEN IF you are not putting yourself in the path of temptation. it is not a sin to face temptation, because Jesus was sinless, and even He faced temptation. it is a sin to dwell on that temptation and entertain thoughts that center on that temptation and it is a sin to act upon those thoughts.

now, why would God not have delivered you thus far? well, a few things come to mind. first of all, you're still wearing that gay label. get rid of it. as long as you're holding on to that, you will not be delivered. secondly, as shiloh pointed out, there may be OTHER areas of your life that you have not called into submission and obedience to God, and those may be hindering you from deliverance.

and my final thought is, if you are NOT a homosexual, but just a christian whose achille's heel happens to be an abnormal attraction, then perhaps this is not something you need deliverance from. God never promised to deliver us from every temptation. He promised to deliver us from bondage.

[~candice~]

and my final thought is, if you are NOT a homosexual, but just a christian whose achille's heel happens to be an abnormal attraction, then perhaps this is not something you need deliverance from. God never promised to deliver us from every temptation. He promised to deliver us from bondage.

This is what I am banging my head on a brick wall about. What is the difference between suffering from this temptation and being under bondage? If indeed you do stand under the temptation, is it still a bondage?

I have been asking over and over again (but it gets missed) whether or not God promises deliverance from this. You are right that He doesn't ever promise that we won't face temptation. But He does promise to break bonds. So which is it? Sigh.

[PhoenixJLD]

So just to be clear here Shiloh, you are saying that not only is homosexual activity a sin but even feeling homosexual desire is?

The Bible teaches that sin begins in the heart. The desire to sin is just as sinful as committing the act. Lusting after a married woman is just as sinful as if you had carried the act out in the flesh.

The Bible makes no distinction between the two, really. Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God and therefore, it is sin to desire the opposite sex as it is to carry out the desire.

According to the Bible, not only should we not carry out sin, but there should not be anything in our heart to prompt it in the first place. So yes, having the feelings and the orientation is as sinful as acting on them.

There is no distinction between desire or lust and sin itself... but there is a distinction between attraction and desire. Attraction is a temptation, a thought that you really can't control. When you dwell on that thought and allow it to take root, it becomes a desire. That is sin. If all "feelings" or thoughts that lead to sin are sinful themselves, then it can't be true that God provides a way of escape.