WHAT IS TRUE MARRIAGE?

[Guest LadyC]

BTW, I like your little slideshow. How'd u do that? 

beats me! ask kitkat, she's the graphics guru

[truseek]

In my opinion, the misunderstanding of the true nature of marriage is one of the biggest problems in the church today. It has led to many christians living in adultery as we speak.

Marriage is the act of becoming one flesh(Gen.2:24, Matt.19:4-6, cf. 1Cor.6:15-16). One flesh is not figurative nor metaphorical, but literal. It is a clear reference to sexual union(1Cor. 6:15-16).When a man has sex with a virgin she becomes his wife(Hence, there is no such thing as pre-marital sex). If a man has sex with more than one virgin then he, quite simply, has more than one wife. In contrast, if a man has sex with a woman who is not a virgin it is adultery because she is already married(has already become one flesh with a man). Concurrently, if a woman has sex with more than one man it is an act of adultery on the part of the woman and the other man who has sex with her(Lev.20:10, 1Cor.7:39). There are only two exceptions to this rule:

1.The non-virgin woman is a widow(1Cor.7:39).

2.The non-virgin woman is a believer and the man who took her virginity is a non-believer who chooses to leave(1Cor.7:15).

Marriage has nothing to do with a piece of paper obtained from government. Their sanctioning of a marriage is as meaningless to God as their sanctioning of divorce. Also, marriage has nothing to do with a church ceremony. Can you find this ceremony outlined anywhere in scripture? I think not.

So, why is all this important. Well, if you married a woman who was not a virgin and the man who took her virginity was a believer then she is not your wife. You are living in adultery even if you have a legal marriage and a ceremony that was performed at church!

It also means that you are telling young adults who become one flesh(have sex) before legal "marriage" that they are guilty of a sin. They are then told to confess this act as sin and move on, oftentimes to marry other people. This results in a married woman legally marrying another brother, which is adultery on her part and his! These two young people did not fornicate, they simply got married.

Of course, if you are living in sin then you cannot produce fruit towards God and your life down here is a waste of time(John 15). You can still do "good things" like sharing truth, giving offering, fellowshipping with the saints, etc., but it will all be burned up when you stand before God. Why? Because you were out of fellowship the whole time. Therefore, You will not recieve any rewards! You will be a vessel of dishonour because of all the fruit you could have produced, but did not because you were out of fellowship for having unconfessed sin in your life.

This may not seem like a big deal now, but when you stand before God all you will have is a new nature(no more old). That new nature cares about nothing but pleasing God. And The Lord's displeasure will pain you beyond anything you could possibly imagine. There will be no physical brain impeding your thought processes as it does now... you will fully understand the error of your ways, but it will be too late.

Please feel free to comment and ask any questions. This post was written out of genuine christian love for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

God bless,

Dave

Amen to that, I have a thread over on controversial issues that you may want to look into.

I really think that the idea of "pre-marital" sex has been extremely destructive within and without the body.

I do not, at all se how this view can possibly be construed as promoting or accepting immorality. The view that you can have sex with someone and walk away because there is no commitment is promoting immoralty.

In Christ

Truseek

Edited July 16, 2004 by truseek

[stevehut]

To humble a woman does not mean to force her. That is a lie you just made up off the top of your head.

A little civility in here, please.

[Guest LadyC]

To humble a woman does not mean to force her.  That is a lie you just made up off the top of your head.

A little civility in here, please.

a little honesty would be even better than civility, since that accusation was totally unfounded. the passage i referred to indeed indicated that the term 'humbled' meant 'raped'... both in our own understanding because of the english translation, AND by the hebrew definitions of the words used.

[truthnluv]

In my opinion, the misunderstanding of the true nature of marriage is one of the biggest problems in the church today. It has led to many christians living in adultery as we speak.

Marriage is the act of becoming one flesh(Gen.2:24, Matt.19:4-6, cf. 1Cor.6:15-16). One flesh is not figurative nor metaphorical, but literal. It is a clear reference to sexual union(1Cor. 6:15-16).When a man has sex with a virgin she becomes his wife(Hence, there is no such thing as pre-marital sex). If a man has sex with more than one virgin then he, quite simply, has more than one wife. In contrast, if a man has sex with a woman who is not a virgin it is adultery because she is already married(has already become one flesh with a man). Concurrently, if a woman has sex with more than one man it is an act of adultery on the part of the woman and the other man who has sex with her(Lev.20:10, 1Cor.7:39). There are only two exceptions to this rule:

1.The non-virgin woman is a widow(1Cor.7:39).

2.The non-virgin woman is a believer and the man who took her virginity is a non-believer who chooses to leave(1Cor.7:15).

Marriage has nothing to do with a piece of paper obtained from government. Their sanctioning of a marriage is as meaningless to God as their sanctioning of divorce. Also, marriage has nothing to do with a church ceremony. Can you find this ceremony outlined anywhere in scripture? I think not.

So, why is all this important. Well, if you married a woman who was not a virgin and the man who took her virginity was a believer then she is not your wife. You are living in adultery even if you have a legal marriage and a ceremony that was performed at church!

It also means that you are telling young adults who become one flesh(have sex) before legal "marriage" that they are guilty of a sin. They are then told to confess this act as sin and move on, oftentimes to marry other people. This results in a married woman legally marrying another brother, which is adultery on her part and his! These two young people did not fornicate, they simply got married.

Of course, if you are living in sin then you cannot produce fruit towards God and your life down here is a waste of time(John 15). You can still do "good things" like sharing truth, giving offering, fellowshipping with the saints, etc., but it will all be burned up when you stand before God. Why? Because you were out of fellowship the whole time. Therefore, You will not recieve any rewards! You will be a vessel of dishonour because of all the fruit you could have produced, but did not because you were out of fellowship for having unconfessed sin in your life.

This may not seem like a big deal now, but when you stand before God all you will have is a new nature(no more old). That new nature cares about nothing but pleasing God. And The Lord's displeasure will pain you beyond anything you could possibly imagine. There will be no physical brain impeding your thought processes as it does now... you will fully understand the error of your ways, but it will be too late.

Please feel free to comment and ask any questions. This post was written out of genuine christian love for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

God bless,

Dave

Amen to that, I have a thread over on controversial issues that you may want to look into.

I really think that the idea of "pre-marital" sex has been extremely destructive within and without the body.

I do not, at all se how this view can possibly be construed as promoting or accepting immorality. The view that you can have sex with someone and walk away because there is no commitment is promoting immoralty.

In Christ

Truseek

Hello, Truseek. I'm glad I could encourage someone with this thread. I truly praise the Lord for your understanding of this vital truth.

I would like to say to everyone that the whole point of this thread I began is to promote LOVE among the brethren. And LOVE IS VITAL.

Romans 13:9-10 says that all the commandments can be summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Notice in verse 9 that "you shall not commit adultery" is mentioned specifically as being unloving. Why? Because if you love someone you do not have sex with his wife! And if you love God you do not disobey Him and commit adultery.

All of the commandments we are given involve LOVE towards God and towards people. If you love God you keep His commandments. This is the only way to show love towards God(John 14:21, 1John 2:3-5). If you love man you do not speak evil about him, you do not lie about him, you do not accuse him, you do not judge him, you do not have sex with his wife, you do not murder him, you do not steal from him, etc., etc.... ALL of God's commands are about love. And He tells you in His word EXACTLY how HE wants you to go about Loving Himself and your neighbor. All of God's commandments for the Christian are about LOVE.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself", this is the summary of LOVE.

All of God's commandments, these are the exact details of how to LOVE.

I reiterate, THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT LOVE.

BY the way, Truseek, I'll be sure to check out your threads.

God bless!

[truthnluv]

To humble a woman does not mean to force her.

[Guest LadyC]

you totally ignored the passage of scripture i quoted in deuteronomy 22, which describes the use of force to humble a woman in rape, which is the passage i was referring to in the first place.

many scenarios are spelled out between the passage you insist on using as proof that it didn't mean rape, and the passage i quoted which is specifically addressing rape.

so no, i did not contradict His word, and the truth you were defending was not even relevant to the truth i was referring to. and ALL of scripture is truth.

[sagz4Christ]

ok.

I have been mulling this thing over and over in my mind. To be honest, these types of discussions are what drove me away from the boards in the first place. I am heart-broken to see that they are still going on. I don't know what prompted me to come back right now; maybe it was to check up on my friends -- you know -- see how they are doing. Maybe it was to see if things had changed. Maybe it was some sick fascination with frustration I have with people that try to "discuss" "topics of great and vital importance." Whatever the reason was, I came back. I don't plan on staying, but just to let people see a balanced view of things, I am compelled to write.

I read the passage in Deuteronomy. Here it is for everyone to see:

Deuteronomy 22:13-30

13"If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, "I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,' 15then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16And the young woman's father shall say to the elders, "I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 17Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, "I found your daughter was not a virgin," and yet these are the evidences of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; 19and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20"But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.

22"If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die; the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

23"If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.

25"But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. 27For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

28"If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

30"A man shall not take his father's wife, nor uncover his father's bed.

Note the order of events:

1. A man takes a wife.

2. He "goes into her."

Point 1: I see here that first the man has married, and then consumated the marriage by having sex.

Now, starting in verse 22.

Point 1: Here, we have a man that is taking a woman that is already "married." Both parties are to die because it was consentual.

Point 2: It is interesting to note that betrothal/engagement seems to be just about as important as marriage itself. I just wonder on the side if we take our engagements to be as serious. This is another topic for another discussion. But at our text again:

We have here two situations with the same person, "a virgin who is bethrothed to a husband." One situation has her in the city having sex with another man. Note what happens to THEM BOTH when people find out: They get stoned to death.

Now let us see what happens when the same situation is found in the countyside:

The man is forced to pay a fine to the woman's father and marry her. If we read on, we see that the REASON he is forced to marry her is because he has soiled her name. Her name is soiled because of the actions of this man, not her. It is the reason niether of them die. He is forced to marry and given no future opprotunity for divorce. It is an honor thing...not a "becoming one flesh" thing. If it were because of the one flesh thing, then they would be forced to marry no matter where the offense took place. Whether in the city or the country. This is not what we find in the passage.

I would like to ask where you get the idea that sex outside the confines of marriage constitues marriage in the eyes of God. I see it no where in the passages of this or any other Scripture. You mentioned Adam and Eve. I would like to point out that God intened/betrothed Eve to Adam even before she was created. Then I would like ot point out that God introduced/married them after was created, and Adam knew what He had done by speaking what he did. "Bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh."

Let us look closer at the account of man and woman being created.

Genesis chapter 2

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Note the following order of events:

1. God created man in His own image

2. God created woman in His own image.

3. THEN God blessed them and said "be fruitful and multiply..."

4. Then sudue the earth.

5. Then have dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth.

Point of interest.

First He created, then He blessed/married, THEN He said "multiply."

But that isn't all ... let us go on:

Genesis chapter 2

18And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."

Here we get a glimpse of the "bethrothal" step. It is found that God wanted to make a helper comparible to him. Now we skip a bit to get to the good stuff ...

Genesis chapter 2

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23And Adam said:

"This is now bone of my bones

And flesh of my flesh;

She shall be called Woman,

Because she was taken out of Man."

24Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Can you guess the order of events in this section? Pretty well laid out isn't it?

1. Adam fell asleep.

2. God took a rib from him and made Eve.

This is the important thing we need to see:

3. God brought her to Adam. This is the "marriage ceremony" if you will.

4. Adam "gave his vows"

Now in verse 24 there is an important and very interesting note:

What is the reason a man shall leave his mother and father? Because he had sex with a female? That is not the intended meaning in these verses. He leaves because he has gotten married. Then and only then is the married "consumated" by "becoming one flesh."

There are a few lessons we can glean from these sections of Scripture.

1. God has intended for man a "suitible helper." You could also say that He has someine picked out for you already. He can certainly intend Suzy down the street for Dimitious living in Moscow.

2. To have sex outside the confines of marriage is to "cheat" on your future partner ... whomever that person is. This is the afront to God Hiimself, and the reason premarital sex is not permitted in Scripture.

3. "Becoming one flesh" involves soo much more than having sex, it would take another thread in itself to discuss all the implications. A short version would be to say that it involves becoming one spirit, having the same focus and being committed without question to each other. Your whole body has to work together to survive just as marriage partners have to work together for the marriage to survive. This is the short idea of what "becoming one flesh" signifies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Though I can appreciate your time and effort in the study you done on the matter; and though I can certainly agree that we as Christians NEED to pay attention to our purity; I cannot agree with you that the first person I had "consentual sex" with is now my wife. It doesn't add up. By rights, and as is laid out in Deuteronomy, we both needed to be stoned in the city. But thank GOD that He has forgiven me of my past and cleansed my slate and given me a new nature so I can serve Christ with all my heart.

This is why I disagree with you on your conclusion. And for the record: I know a thing or two about exegesis and hermeneutics. It is the simple art of paying attention to what you are reading.

There are some things you got completely correct in your study. As a matter of fact, there are alot of things right. I just want to show you that your conclusion is wrong. Just as people can read Hebrews and James and come to the conclusion that our salvation is conditional. They do great studies, but draw the wrong conslusions from the evidence. Incidentially, scientists also draw the wrong conclusions when they say there is no evidence for the existense of God. This isn't an attack on you, or your faith. It is, as I stated at the beginning, an opprotunity to give a balanced view on the subject at hand.

Sorry this is so long.

~serving Christ in faith

[truseek]

ok.

I have been mulling this thing over and over in my mind. To be honest, these types of discussions are what drove me away from the boards in the first place. I am heart-broken to see that they are still going on. I don't know what prompted me to come back right now; maybe it was to check up on my friends -- you know -- see how they are doing. Maybe it was to see if things had changed. Maybe it was some sick fascination with frustration I have with people that try to "discuss" "topics of great and vital importance." Whatever the reason was, I came back. I don't plan on staying, but just to let people see a balanced view of things, I am compelled to write.

I read the passage in Deuteronomy. Here it is for everyone to see:

Deuteronomy 22:13-30

13"If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, "I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,' 15then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16And the young woman's father shall say to the elders, "I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 17Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, "I found your daughter was not a virgin," and yet these are the evidences of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; 19and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20"But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.

22"If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die; the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

23"If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.

25"But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. 27For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

28"If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

30"A man shall not take his father's wife, nor uncover his father's bed.

Note the order of events:

1. A man takes a wife.

2. He "goes into her."

Point 1: I see here that first the man has married, and then consumated the marriage by having sex.

Now, starting in verse 22.

Point 1: Here, we have a man that is taking a woman that is already "married." Both parties are to die because it was consentual.

Point 2: It is interesting to note that betrothal/engagement seems to be just about as important as marriage itself. I just wonder on the side if we take our engagements to be as serious. This is another topic for another discussion. But at our text again:

We have here two situations with the same person, "a virgin who is bethrothed to a husband." One situation has her in the city having sex with another man. Note what happens to THEM BOTH when people find out: They get stoned to death.

Now let us see what happens when the same situation is found in the countyside:

The man is forced to pay a fine to the woman's father and marry her. If we read on, we see that the REASON he is forced to marry her is because he has soiled her name. Her name is soiled because of the actions of this man, not her. It is the reason niether of them die. He is forced to marry and given no future opprotunity for divorce. It is an honor thing...not a "becoming one flesh" thing. If it were because of the one flesh thing, then they would be forced to marry no matter where the offense took place. Whether in the city or the country. This is not what we find in the passage.

I would like to ask where you get the idea that sex outside the confines of marriage constitues marriage in the eyes of God. I see it no where in the passages of this or any other Scripture. You mentioned Adam and Eve. I would like to point out that God intened/betrothed Eve to Adam even before she was created. Then I would like ot point out that God introduced/married them after was created, and Adam knew what He had done by speaking what he did. "Bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh."

Let us look closer at the account of man and woman being created.

Genesis chapter 2

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Note the following order of events:

1. God created man in His own image

2. God created woman in His own image.

3. THEN God blessed them and said "be fruitful and multiply..."

4. Then sudue the earth.

5. Then have dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth.

Point of interest.

First He created, then He blessed/married, THEN He said "multiply."

But that isn't all ... let us go on:

Genesis chapter 2

18And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."

Here we get a glimpse of the "bethrothal" step. It is found that God wanted to make a helper comparible to him. Now we skip a bit to get to the good stuff ...

Genesis chapter 2

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23And Adam said:

"This is now bone of my bones

And flesh of my flesh;

She shall be called Woman,

Because she was taken out of Man."

24Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Can you guess the order of events in this section? Pretty well laid out isn't it?

1. Adam fell asleep.

2. God took a rib from him and made Eve.

This is the important thing we need to see:

3. God brought her to Adam. This is the "marriage ceremony" if you will.

4. Adam "gave his vows"

Now in verse 24 there is an important and very interesting note:

What is the reason a man shall leave his mother and father? Because he had sex with a female? That is not the intended meaning in these verses. He leaves because he has gotten married. Then and only then is the married "consumated" by "becoming one flesh."

There are a few lessons we can glean from these sections of Scripture.

1. God has intended for man a "suitible helper." You could also say that He has someine picked out for you already. He can certainly intend Suzy down the street for Dimitious living in Moscow.

2. To have sex outside the confines of marriage is to "cheat" on your future partner ... whomever that person is. This is the afront to God Hiimself, and the reason premarital sex is not permitted in Scripture.

3. "Becoming one flesh" involves soo much more than having sex, it would take another thread in itself to discuss all the implications. A short version would be to say that it involves becoming one spirit, having the same focus and being committed without question to each other. Your whole body has to work together to survive just as marriage partners have to work together for the marriage to survive. This is the short idea of what "becoming one flesh" signifies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Though I can appreciate your time and effort in the study you done on the matter; and though I can certainly agree that we as Christians NEED to pay attention to our purity; I cannot agree with you that the first person I had "consentual sex" with is now my wife. It doesn't add up. By rights, and as is laid out in Deuteronomy, we both needed to be stoned in the city. But thank GOD that He has forgiven me of my past and cleansed my slate and given me a new nature so I can serve Christ with all my heart.

This is why I disagree with you on your conclusion. And for the record: I know a thing or two about exegesis and hermeneutics. It is the simple art of paying attention to what you are reading.

There are some things you got completely correct in your study. As a matter of fact, there are alot of things right. I just want to show you that your conclusion is wrong. Just as people can read Hebrews and James and come to the conclusion that our salvation is conditional. They do great studies, but draw the wrong conslusions from the evidence. Incidentially, scientists also draw the wrong conclusions when they say there is no evidence for the existense of God. This isn't an attack on you, or your faith. It is, as I stated at the beginning, an opprotunity to give a balanced view on the subject at hand.

Sorry this is so long.

~serving Christ in faith

"If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her"

I'd like to point out that the word there is and, which to me would suggest the two events happening simultaneously.

It seems to me that the majority of your hypothesis here is based on inference and assumption, not literal reading of the scripture.

Could you please, please, please back this statement up with scripture, as I have heard it often, but never backed:

2. To have sex outside the confines of marriage is to "cheat" on your future partner ... whomever that person is. This is the afront to God Hiimself, and the reason premarital sex is not permitted in Scripture.

As an aside, I have also heard a similar point made. A pastor once told me that kissing your g/f is unnacceptable, even pecks and in public, as you would not kiss another man's wife. To this I replied, Would you date another man's wife?

In Christ

Truseek

[truthnluv]

[Q]ok.

I have been mulling this thing over and over in my mind.

Edited July 17, 2004 by truthnluv