ServingHim Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 Who said Pauls thorn in the flesh was a sickness? I believe you are using the scripture out of context. Pauls thorn in the flesh was a demonic testing, temptation or trail of some sort And a physical ailment could not have served this purpose? You raise a good point, but I think it could go either way. how do you know for sure it was not a 'physical' ailment...but I think you also have a very good point that 'it COULD be' demonic as you stated. Scripture is not clear on either way...perhaps there is a reason for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 (edited) Paul said what it was. Paul was a brilliant communicator. He knew how to make a clear statement. He called it a Spirit that was following him around to keep him grounded. His experiences were so supernatural and above the ordinary that God allowed for this to happen to remind him who he wasn't. This is CLEAR. The only way to get anything else out of it, is to have an agenda of unbelief. If you want to make it sickness, you can do so. It helps justify your posistion. Where does suffering come from? Did the Father cause Jesus to suffer? Did the Father whip Him? Did the Father put the thorns on His brow? Did the Father nail the nails into his flesh? Did the Father put the sins of the world upon His shoulders? No. We and demons did this. Jesus did take on the sins of the world upon himself, but they were the sins we committed. Suffering doesn't come from God. Now to say that suffering is Gods will is to say that it comes from him. Cause and Effect. They are attached. This whole posistion that God is behind suffering is UNSUFFERABLE! God is there with us through the sufferings. He gives us the strength to endure sufferings. But it is sin that causes these things. No matter how hard we try to escape that fact, our sin causes bad things. The sins of others cause bad things on us. But not God. He gets the glory when we respond in our sufferings in a godly way. One of my favorite subjects is to study the lives of the saints. I love to read Catholic church history because it is so much more complete in its coverage. (I am not a Catholic, and like any Protestant have some problems with some of their doctrines and the way they persecuted those who were dissidents or even supporters. But we Protestants did the same thing whether we want to admit it or not.) I love reading how they endured suffering to the end. Their attitudes have been a strength for me in my times of trial. But not one of them put the blame on God. They rejoiced in their affliction, but never said God was the reason for their sufferings. They acknowledged God allowed them to happen, but the source was their own sin or the results of mens wickedness. Scriptures including Job make that clear also. My point is to point toward Gods obvious goal for us. On Earth as it is in Heaven. When these things don't happen that way, it is because of Earthly reasons, and not heavenly reasons. His Kingdom has no sickness. His Kingdom has no death. No Sorrow. No Suffering. NADA! If that is so, that means it is His will for such. His perfect will is established in heaven. We are to learn how to bring His Kingdom to Earth. Edited July 30, 2004 by Scudbuddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 Why people don't always get healed is our mystery. But again, I have established His will in Scripture. He told us to pray this way. "Your Kingdom Come, Your Will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven!" No one has anwsered that verse with anything. Not scripture, not speculation, not theories and conjectures. Just silence. Why? Because it gets in the way of your posistion. So you are either consciencously are unconsciencously ignoring it. Read my previous post and you will find: Now the argument has been brought forth that because Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServingHim Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 Paul said what it was. Paul was a brilliant communicator. He knew how to make a clear statement. He called it a Spirit that was following him around to keep him grounded . . . . The only way to get anything else out of it, is to have an agenda of unbelief. If you want to make it sickness, you can do so. It helps justify your posistion. 1 I must boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows -- 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. 6 Though if I wish to boast, I shall not be a fool, for I shall be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:1-10 This is all that I am aware of that we're talking about, and forgive me, but it is unclear to me that this could ONLY mean a 'demoniac' and NOT ALSO a physical illness...again, just me humbly trying to understand... No agenda here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 Scud, I am not reading into anything. I am taking the Greek and simply expounding. To say, "oh, this is clear, thus any other interpretation must be of unbelief" is a straw man arguement and thus void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Again, I'm not trying to be dogmatic about it either way. You always say that! LOL! J/J You don't know me very well, do ye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 Super Jew, For some reason I missed your comment on that verse. I am sorry about that. But your explanation for what it means doesn't follow. Jesus is instructing us on how to pray. This subject is on how to pray. His instructions are "Thy Kingdom come." What happens in His Kingdom? His Kingdom has no sickness or death or sin. "Thy Will be done." This is the part of the prayer that sets up everything. "ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN." The point is is that we are to pray in that direction. Not that we have those experiences at all times, but that is the will of God on how to pray. That God establishes His Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Not once have I denied that sickness, death, and other horrible things take place here. Even on good people. Even to Jesus. What I have done is shown that suffering comes from sin and demonic sources. God is not the cause for the effect. He came into the world to bring the cause and its effect down. I have never denied that suffering can be used to glorify God. But suffering doesn't come from God. I have never denied that Christians who live godly lives suffer in spite of it. Sins effect is not just on the sinner of the sin, but on all that is around it. But by praying with faith that Gods Kingdom be established on earth like it is in heaven is the only prayer model we have. When we pray "If it is Gods will", we immediately start up unbelief in ourselves and the recipient of the prayer. "What if God likes me like this? What if I am supposed to die this horrible death to cancer because God likes to see me suffer?" Whatever Gods intentions are for our life, when we hear prayers like that, it does nothing for our faith. This is one of the reasons why many more people are healed in Third World countries where the Western Empirical Mindset is not in control. They see God heal once, and they believe He heals. No mind games. Just pure belief that God heals. For some reason I guess, God likes to see Westerners suffer more than those in the East. Because they get healed much more often. And again, I would like to hear the stories of incredible healings taking place among you that pray like this. I have dozens of stories of miraculous healings praying my way. I know there are exceptions to the rule. I know that God sometimes heals us in spite of our lack of faith. But on the whole, this is the reason we only go to God for healing after the doctors have given up hope. We have a theology that is chock full of unbelief and excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted July 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2004 When we pray "If it is Gods will", we immediately start up unbelief in ourselves and the recipient of the prayer. "What if God likes me like this? What if I am supposed to die this horrible death to cancer because God likes to see me suffer?" This is my point also. That kind of unbelief will get you nothing from the kingdom of God. It is persistant and unrelenting faith that gets results. Imagine some of the people of the bible that recieved healing decide to say "well maybe its not God's will for me to be healed, maybe God gave me this sickness so that I would be godlier person, maybe I should stay here at home pray for God to give me more sickness so that God can be glorifed in my sufferings". Does this sound like a person of faith or doubt? Does this sound like a believer or a unbeliever? Do you think that kind of unbelief would have gotten them healed or eternal life? NO The kind of faith that gets results says, "God I know according to your word that you are my Healer and Lord I will not leave you alone until you heal me of this sickness, God I refuse to doubt your word, by your wounds of torture I am healed. now lord stretch out your hand and heal me so that it will bring glory for your kingdom and heal me so that I may be a living testimony of your great love an power." Jam 5:14-16 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted July 31, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2004 *sigh* And the scripture put forth is ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted July 31, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2004 The belief that God will heal all sickness is dangerous and unbiblical. Allow me to explain: We know from various scriptures that sometimes it is within God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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