Healing Services

[Guest Called]

I agree with you Scudbuddy!

[Kabowd]

Jedi -

God does not get any glory from you being sick. God only gets glory when we suffer for righteousness sake but he does not get any glory when we suffer from a sickness unless we are healed. Explain to me how God is glorified in watching people die and suffer from sickness.

I hope you realize you just personally defined how God can and cannot receive glory...and you limited it greatly. To say that God cannot receive glory through suffering is to deny much of Scripture. Have you read the book of Job lately? The book of Hosea? James chapter 1? Sometimes God chooses not to remove our ailments, but rather teaches us to lean on Him through them. Explain to me how God is NOT glorified when someone is walking through pain or a trial and keep their trust in Him. Seems to me a physical healing is the easy road. It's easy to trust Him and lean on Him when things are perfect...it takes much more faith to trust Him when you don't understand.

"But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weakness, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in my weakness, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:9-10

Yes its always Gods will to heal just as it is always Gods will to save someone from distruction.

Then how do you explain Paul? Re-read the verses I listed above.

These verses show us:

#1 Pauls 'thorn' caused him pain

#2 he pleaded for God to heal him

#3 God gave him grace instead of healing

#4 no sign that God was punishing Paul

#5 Paul didn't see it as punishment either

The word Paul uses for 'weakness' is the greek word 'astheneia'...which means malady, frailty, disease, sickness or weakness in the mind or body.....but regardless of how you intepret his "thorn", the fact of the matter is that he pleaded repeatedly that God would remove....and He didn't. Does that mean Paul lacked faith? Apparently not because we don't see God rebuking him for his lack of faith. Instead we see God supply the grace Paul needed to persevere. Paul was also the one who said, "We live by faith, not by sight".

Again please explain to me how God gets glory from letting people suffer and die from sickness? Would not God be much more glorified if they were healed?

No one is saying (i hope) that God does not heal or that He doesn't receive glory in that. We are saying that there is no evidence scripturally that this is the ONLY way He reveals His glory (through healing). Does God want all to come to repentance? Yes! But to say that can only be done through all sicknesses being healed is severely limiting what God can do. God is glorified JUST AS MUCH by a strong believer who suffers through an illness with unwavering faith...as He is when a person is miraculously healed. I believe grace is a miracle that most ppl overlook, because it isn't the miracle they would rather have.

I'm still wondering what you believe about suffering. What about the scriptures that refer to God being glorified in our suffering? For instance: I Peter 4:19, James 1:2-4, Phil. 3:10. And again how do you explain Paul? Job? How do you explaing Psalm 23? Isaiah 43:1-4? Throughout the Bible God promises He will BE WITH us THROUGH hard times.Through the fire, through the storm, through the pain ..... not that He will remove all of it, but that He will be there WITH US THROUGH IT. I think He wants us to find comfort in knowing He's there...not in hoping He'll take all the trials away.

[apothanein kerdos]

The belief that God will heal all sickness is dangerous and unbiblical. Allow me to explain:

We know from various scriptures that sometimes it is within God

[ServingHim]

God does not get any glory from you being sick.  God only gets glory when we suffer for righteousness sake but he does not get any glory when we suffer from a sickness unless we are healed.  Explain to me how God is glorified in watching people die and suffer.

wasn't He glorified when His Son suffered and died...even though the people around couldn't recognize it until much later?

Yes its always Gods will to heal just as it is always Gods will to save someone from distruction.

and so are you saying that if God 'choses' not to heal, that He doesn't love them as much? I'm confused how it is ALWAYS His Will to 'heal' (are you talking physically)? Paul was never 'healed' of his 'thorn' in his side...

Again please explain to me how God gets glory from letting people suffer and die from sickness?

I believe it goes much further than what we can 'visually' recognize as 'glorifying God'. Why did God allow Paul to suffer? Why did Paul say ... 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, Col 1:24 ... Paul was 'allowed' to suffer... 40 So they took his advice, and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. 42 And every day in the temple and at home they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. Acts 5:40-42

Would not God be much more glorified if they were healed?

God's ways are not our ways.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9

God is always willing to heal just as much God is willing to save someone from sin and distruction but we must receive them by faith or you will not see either.

but again, if He doesn't 'heal' physically, what does that mean in your opinion? Why didn't he 'heal' Paul? Why didn't he save Stephen from being stoned to death?

29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world. 1 Cor 11:29-32 (RSV) . . . Apparently God was NOT willing to HEAL these people that Paul is talking about!

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphrodi'tus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all, and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me. Phil 2:25-30 (RSV)

Immediately an angel of the Lord smote him, because he did not give God the glory; and he was eaten by worms and died. Acts 12:23 (RSV)

I don't think that it IS always God's will to heal everyone of illness/sickness. I believe God is glorified in how one re-acts to their sufferings. IMHO... :il:

[ServingHim]

great posts, tess and superjew!

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Then how do you explain Paul? Re-read the verses I listed above.

These verses show us:

#1 Pauls 'thorn' caused him pain

#2 he pleaded for God to heal him

#3 God gave him grace instead of healing

#4 no sign that God was punishing Paul

#5 Paul didn't see it as punishment either

The word Paul uses for 'weakness' is the greek word 'astheneia'...which means malady, frailty, disease, sickness or weakness in the mind or body.....but regardless of how you intepret his "thorn", the fact of the matter is that he pleaded repeatedly that God would remove....and He didn't. Does that mean Paul lacked faith? Apparently not because we don't see God rebuking him for his lack of faith. Instead we see God supply the grace Paul needed to persevere. Paul was also the one who said, "We live by faith, not by sight".

Who said Pauls thorn in the flesh was a sickness? I believe you are using the scripture out of context. Pauls thorn in the flesh was a demonic testing, temptation or trail of some sort but there is no hint of it being a sickness.

2Co 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. (8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

And also if your saying the Pauls messenger of Satan is a sickness then your also saying that God gets glory by puting demonic spirits in our lifes. God may indeed allow Satan to buffet us but God allows those that believe to have victory of them. Thats including sickness by overcoming it with healing.

The word Infirmities is a weakness this is why Paul says I will glory in my weakness that God be made strong in my weakness.

Yes God does get glory when we are test, tried and tempeted but thats if we overcome them but again God is not glorifed in sickness and death unless that person is healed and delivered.

I never said that All people will be healed no more then all will be saved, but it is still Gods will that all be saved and all be healed. No, not everyone will be healed but God is willing to heal them but they must respond in faith and receive it. Just as we are to respond in faith to receive eternal life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

We see from this scripture that it is not Gods will for anybody die and go to hell but fact is not all people we be saved but it was still Gods will to save them even though many will never be saved.

Its the same with healing. Its Gods will that sickness and sin be eraticated from mankind but the truth is many will never recieve healing even though it is Gods will to heal them.

Why not? No Faith in God!!!!

[stevehut]

Who said Pauls thorn in the flesh was a sickness? I believe you are using the scripture out of context. Pauls thorn in the flesh was a demonic testing, temptation or trail of some sort

And a physical ailment could not have served this purpose? You raise a good point, but I think it could go either way.

[Scudbuddy]

Steve,

When scripture is clear, we don't get to interpret it. This scripture is so clear, it defys you to change it. Yet you do. Paul clearly stated it was a spirit following him around. That it was buffeting him. Look up the word "buffet." It is something devils do.

I have anwsered everything else that keeps coming up on this board.

I know that some people don't get healed. Doesn't mean it isn't Gods will to heal them.

Yes, God gets glory in how we respond in suffering. Lets think Joni Erikson Tada. Today she is suffering with her paraylasis in such a godly way. Her attitude is amazing. Her testimony has been heard around the world. Where ever she goes people listen to her. But guess what? If we saints continued to pray for her healing, and she got healed, what kind of testimony would that be? The world would be in awe of our God. Many a mouth would be wide open in wonder at the greatness of our God. It would make headlines. Her suffering doesn't make headlines. There are people who are wonderfully inspired to go through the fire because of her. And I so appreciate her dependance of God for doing so. But what faith it would inspire for those same people if after all these years she got healed.

One thing I have noticed is that when a big healing takes place in a meeting, the faith level in the place is so high that more healings take place right away.

You all have put suffering up as something to be glorified. It is ugly, demonic, and no one while suffering wants it to continue. Including Joni. She has made that clear from day one. The "Passion" proved how awful and ugly it is. But Jesus died to take our sins away, and payed the price for all our calamities.

For some reason, at times we are unable to access all of the promises. Sometimes it is because the person being prayed for has no faith, or the person praying has no faith, or both. Sometimes God doesn't heal someone because sin is in the way that is secret. Sometimes it is just because God works within His mysterious ways. If we understood all the reasons why, we would understand the very heart of God. And that would not be possible, because God is meant to be somewhat mysterious. His prophets never knew all the reasons for the things going on. Neither can we.

I heard it said once that this preacher read a book that explained everything about the Heart of God so perfectly that he knew it couldn't be of God. Because God demands to have some mysteries about Him.

Why people don't always get healed is our mystery. But again, I have established His will in Scripture. He told us to pray this way. "Your Kingdom Come, Your Will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven!"

No one has anwsered that verse with anything. Not scripture, not speculation, not theories and conjectures. Just silence. Why? Because it gets in the way of your posistion. So you are either consciencously are unconsciencously ignoring it.

If you are into scripture, then address that scripture. It blows your posistion away. :oww:

[stevehut]

When scripture is clear, we don't get to interpret it. This scripture is so clear, it defys you to change it. Yet you do. Paul clearly stated it was a spirit following him around.

Yup.

Which can manifest itself as a physical sickness.

Again, I'm not trying to be dogmatic about it either way.

[Guest Called]

Again, I'm not trying to be dogmatic about it either way.

You always say that! LOL! J/J