Rapture

[Guest EPHRIAM777]

Quote: from Teri Mc on 5:29 pm on Mar. 1, 2002

I'm still getting confused on this issue. I can't seem to get an answer in prayer either. Every time I look into it I get a different idea what is right. I really don't care when or if it happens, but when someone asks I would like to have the right answer.

Eph writes..

Well Teri the correct answer is the "Pre trib" position and SCRIPTURE is quite clear on that...BTW I do care because it's important..People who think otherwise NEED to be told the truth...Or they WILL go through the Great Trib..for thinking AND believeing otherwise..!

So it IS important and WE as Christians should care..not only for ourselves but for others as well..!

As a matter of fact Teri iPRE Trib is the ONLY right answer..the "other" answers are all "wrong answers"...So that should "end the confusion" for you..

Now armed with the right answer..when someone asks you...You can give confidently give them the right one..!

[Guest Xan]

"People who think otherwise NEED to be told the truth...Or they WILL go through the Great Trib...for thinking AND believing otherwise."  So what you're saying is salvation is not by grace alone but by believing the way Eph believes?  Show me scripture.

[Lanakila]

Yes show scripture to back up that statement Eph. Sorry, I am pre-trib but totally disagree. Belief in a pre-trib rapture has nothing to do with being raptured as does belief in a post-trib. You are being very dogmatic Eph and you must back it up with scripture because, I don't see this anywhere. The "Bride" of Christ is raptured not just those who believe in a pre-trib postition. The whole Bride!!! Which is all born again believers not those who believe as you do.

[Guest EPHRIAM777]

Quote: from Lanakila on 8:59 am on Mar. 7, 2002

You are forgetting the ((((144,000 Jewish Male Virgin Prophets,)))) that are spoken of in the book of Revelation.

Eph writes...

Lana...I think we better go and RE read Rev chapter 7 again...!

What does it say..in verse 4..??  144,000 of the Jews..? Or does it say of ALL the Tribes of Israel..?

Right..ALL the tribes..not "Jews"..The 144,000 aren't all Jews..Jews make up only 12,000  

See verse 5..!

See most Christians use the word Jew and Israel as synonyms....( words that mean the same thing )..But their wrong..

Why..?

Because Jacob had 12 sons..! All Jews are Hebrews..but not All Hebrews are Jews..!

Lanakila says...

Those that are saved during the tribulation will recieve the Holy Spirit just as we do

Eph writes...

Sorry but that is inaccurate...!

Lanakila writes...

so the Holy Spirit will be here but because there are fewer Christians

Eph writes..

Although the Holy Spirit will still be here..!..Christians (or NT Church Saints)won't be here..!

Those that come out of the Great Trib minus their heads aren't NT Church Saints..

Lana writes..

There are many Bible Schollars way smarter than I that follow the pre-trib tradition, in fact one of our great seminaries has some of the best teachers of this position. The main thing is be ready, ((((whenever the rapture and try to snatch as many out of the hands of the evil one as you can.)))

Eph writes...

This is not keeping with scriptures...sorry...it may "sound" good...but unless you can provide scriptural chapter and verse..It's not going to happen that way..The Holy Spirit does the "snatching" as you put it...We don't do it of ourselves...nor CAN we...Plus we aren't left in the dark by Jesus on this matter of the rapture..so we don't say "whenever" as if we don't know for sure..!

From this type of "shakey delivery" of the Gosple..The next question by unbelievers would be..IF your not sure when Jesus is gonna return for his bride..How can you know he really raised from the dead..?

If your not sure of something..learn about it..study about it..but don't deliver the Gosple to others as "shakey"..not for sure...Who knows..!

Right..?

We the church need to be about the father's business and win men, women, boys, and girls, to Jesus. My burden is for the many lost who will believe the strong delusion, if the tribulation comes as soon as it seems it will.

The muslims for example are not being reached at all, I know that they don't want to be reached, but there is only one way to heaven and that is through belief in Jesus. They are believing a lie and we need to reach them with the gospel. Someone needs to get smart and come up with a way to reach the multitudes, because it isn't being done. As I type this I know 9 fingers are pointing back at myself, I just have a burden (given by the Holy Spirit) that this world is almost totally unreached and we go about our business as if its ok, its not ok. Sept 11 was a terrible tragedy, but many more than that die everyday without Christ and they do go to ####. Something has to be done, I am praying for revival but it needs to be a world wide revival and I am not sure that is going to happen (its possible though).

[Guest EPHRIAM777]

Quote: from Xan on 11:15 am on Mar. 7, 2002

What about the letter Paul writes to the church in Thessalonia in which he states we will not be gathered unto our L-rd until the lawless one is revealed desecrating the temple?

Eph writes...

Hmm trying to track your "paraphrased" verse down for you..!

Please turn to 1 THES 5:1...Here we read "But of the times and the seasons brethern "YE" have NO need that I write UNTO YOU...!

Why..?

Because WE (the brethern) won't be here...This letter was to be read as 1 Thes 5:27 commanded..and ALL means ALL..so that includes US too...!!

Also see...1 THES 5:4..We are "NOT" in darkness that THAT day should over take "US" like a thief..((like it WILL overtake the ones who ARE in darkness)))

As for "standing in the Temple"..Isn't that a quote..from Daniel 9..and Jesus in Mark 13:14..Not Paul..?

Unless you mean 2 THES 2:8..? Hey if you turn there you'll see verse 5 thru 7..where the Church is described as the "withholding" force..! "Letteth" in old English means to "hinder"..and is still used in the game of Tennis when the ball is "restrained" by the net when serving the ball

[Guest EPHRIAM777]

Quote: from Teri Mc on 7:19 pm on Mar. 7, 2002

If the people saved during the tribulation receive the Holy spirit than he can not be the restrainer. The Holy Spirit is not parceled out a little here because there are few christians. If he is here than he is here in his completeness.

[Lanakila]

Eph, I think you misunderstood totally what I posted but thats ok. I am pre-trib as you claim to be but you still want to slam me. You are mis-reading Rev 7 it says 12,000 from all the tribes of Jews. But this is not important to what we were discussing though. There will be saints during the tribulation, and all of them won't be of Jewish descent. They will be martyred for their faith, or at least most of them will. I am not saying that some will be left back in the rapture Eph, but that some will come to Christ during the tribulation. Read Rev chapter 14 9-20 and explain this to me ok. Cause it seems to me from this passage that there will be tribulation saints that aren't part of the 144,000.

9.  A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

10.  he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11.  And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

12.  This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

13.  Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."   "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

14.  I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man"  with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15.  Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

16.  So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17.  Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.

18.  Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe."

19.  The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

20.  They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia

I am not saying I know everything about this Eph but I can read and have studied it some. If you think you know everything about this I think personally you are deceiving yourself. Its not all black and white, and everyone that disagrees with you isn't wrong, you can just as easily be mistaken as me.

Another thing, I was talking about trying to win people to Christ, which is my deepest burden and you accuse me of not depending on the Holy Spirit, you are being so judgemental, based on a few posts. Be careful because I am a sister in Christ, not a wolf in sheeps clothing. You are all over Freedom for his posts about Catholicism, and I happen to agree with Freedom on that thread. You appear to have a very judgemental spirit and that isn't good Eph. Yes I know we are to be fruit inspectors, but think of that in light of this passage in Galatians:

5:14-26  14.  The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

15.  If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16.  So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

17.  For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

18.  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19.  The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

20.  idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

21.  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22.  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23.  gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24.  Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

25.  Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

26.  Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

[Guest EPHRIAM777]

Lana wrote...

Eph, I think you misunderstood totally what I posted but thats ok. I am pre-trib as you claim to be but you still want to slam me. You are mis-reading Rev 7 it says 12,000 from all the tribes of Jews.

Eph writes..

Sorry I didn't see this post WAYYY sooner Lana..NO I'm not slamming you...thats first off..!

The Bible says from Each tribe of ALL the children of ISRAEL..Not Jews...Jews make up only one tribe of the 12..!

Lana says..

But this is not important to what we were discussing though. There will be saints during the tribulation, and all of them won't be of Jewish descent...

Eph says..

Lana your confusing Jew and Israel to mean the same thing..their not..! Jews make up only 1 part in 12 tribes of the children of Israel/Jacob...!

NT Church Saints on the other hand CAN be of any descent or race...!  BUT not the 144,000 thousand mentioned in REV 7..They are from a particular group of people..The sons of Jacob/Israel..or children of Israel..  They "can" be of different races and peoples by the mixing of blood lines throughout the many yrs..! But they will ALL be and have "Hebrew"..blood flowing in their veins...!

(( God knows who's who and where they are that have the blood in their veins from Jacob/Israel ))

Lana writes...

They will be martyred for their faith, or at least most of them will. I am not saying that some will be left back in the rapture Eph, but that some will come to Christ during the tribulation. Read Rev chapter 14 9-20 and explain this to me ok. Cause it seems to me from this passage that there will be tribulation saints that aren't part of the 144,000.

Eph writes...

Remember the 2 Saints will be preaching a message down here at that time and also standing against Mr Anti.....It's not the Gosple WE preach today..but it must include Jesus in it..!

Lana writes...

You appear to have a very judgemental spirit and that isn't good Eph. Yes I know we are to be fruit inspectors,

Eph writes...

No were NOT to be fruit inspectors Lana...See MATT 6...Someone who does their "works" in secret..can't be inspected by you or me..! IF they do as Jesus commanded and do their works in secret..How will you be able to inspect them..?

God above only knows their works..! IF you or I judge a person by what we can SEE..We're the ones who then are  "judgemental"..If you for example decide that because you see no "fruit" that person isn't a Christian..Here's what else you just did..You have also decided they aren't going to Heaven (whether you know it or not)..! God never gave us that authority...to judge people that way..!

Because only Christians in this day and age are going to heaven..Only people alive today can be seen by you or me..!So if you think your here to judge MY fruit or anyone elses your wrong..How can you "judge" my fruit if I'm doing it in secret as Jesus commanded NOT to be seen of men..huh..??

Don't mix up "rightly descerning Gods book"..with "judging" someone to eternal damnation..because I may disagree with them..I don't EVER condemn someone to hell..or say I don't see their fruit so they must not BE a Christian..!

That would be doing God's job for him..and we are never to "judge" people that way..BUT we can and should judge them and the message they bring...!

Now if someone says their NOT a Christian..I let em know their on the wrong road..and the bridge is out ahead..Thats different than saying their going to hell..ON the way maybe..but it's not for me to decide that..!

[Butterfly634]

I was just wondering if anyone could recommend some good authors/books that debate between pre, post, and mid tribulation rapture. I keep changing my mind about which I lean towards and would appreciate a scholars point of view that has scripture to back it up. Thanks for your help!  

[Revelation]

Check out Marvin Rothental's (I think that is how you spell his last name) the book is called Pre-Wrath Tribulation...ask your local book store if they carry it.