jsca777 Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 247 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/04/1973 Share Posted February 12, 2010 If God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, omniscient, can we conclude that God is never surprised and is everthing that happens here on earth and in heaven good or bad, in his will? Evil is not part of His will, for God is opposed to evil. Of course God cannot be surprised because if anything surprised Him, He wouldn't be omniscient. If your surprised, there is something you weren't aware of. God is aware of everything. I understand your answer, however, have you ever consider Job? God allowed Job to lose half of his family. God allowed it sure, Job was being tested. Satan made the claim that he could get Job to curse God. Job didn't curse God and Satan was proved wrong. We too get tested sometimes. When being tested, it shows what your really made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Calvinism, determinism, decretalism, compatibilism is not biblical. The Bible does portray God has personal, changing His mind at times, suprised at times, omnicompetent vs omnicausal, etc. Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Thought are some of the possibilities for understanding predestination, sovereignty, free will, etc. Eternal now/simultaneity is philosophical, not biblical. Strong vs weak immutability, impassibility, etc. are also tradition, not truth. We need to avoid determinism like the plague since it would make God responsible for heinous evil. A denial of libertarian free will undermines love, freedom, relationship, responsibility. This is a big can of worms, but I would not be quick to assume all of the responses so far are accurate (e.g. God macro vs micromanages, for e.g.). After 30 years of study, I believe Open Theism is a more biblical, coherent free will theism. www.opentheism.info I believe God uses evil to accomplish His will. Consider the Assyrians, Babylonians, Judas, ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 While we may be making choices, we were all created with a unique personality. Some are more stubborn than others. Some are more able to take God at his Word and believe in the Bible while others are skeptics. In other words, we were pre-programmed to a certain extent to be how we are. We were placed in differen't parts of the world with differen't cultures and religions. As such, a large part of our belief system and the decisions we make were set in motion before we were even created in the womb. The question in my mind is, how pre-programmed is our life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Calvinism, determinism, decretalism, compatibilism is not biblical. The Bible does portray God has personal, changing His mind at times, suprised at times, omnicompetent vs omnicausal, etc. Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Thought are some of the possibilities for understanding predestination, sovereignty, free will, etc. Eternal now/simultaneity is philosophical, not biblical. Strong vs weak immutability, impassibility, etc. are also tradition, not truth. We need to avoid determinism like the plague since it would make God responsible for heinous evil. A denial of libertarian free will undermines love, freedom, relationship, responsibility. This is a big can of worms, but I would not be quick to assume all of the responses so far are accurate (e.g. God macro vs micromanages, for e.g.). After 30 years of study, I believe Open Theism is a more biblical, coherent free will theism. www.opentheism.info God does not ever change his mind, if he did that would mean he was wrong to start with. The god you worship may be wrong, but the God that I do is never wrong. I Sam 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind." It could not be more clear. If God could change his mind, there is no assurance of salvation. He might change his mind. If God can change his mind no promise he has ever made is worth the paper it was written on, as he might just change his mind. Open Theism allows for things to happen that God does not know about. If this is the case then there is a chance that Satan could win in the end, as even God cannot no for sure, under Open Theism. Well said! And I agree that never changes His mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 While we may be making choices, we were all created with a unique personality. Some are more stubborn than others. Some are more able to take God at his Word and believe in the Bible while others are skeptics. In other words, we were pre-programmed to a certain extent to be how we are. We were placed in differen't parts of the world with differen't cultures and religions. As such, a large part of our belief system and the decisions we make were set in motion before we were even created in the womb. The question in my mind is, how pre-programmed is our life? Are you a Calvinist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Are you saying there is no answer to this question? There is, but not in the way you would like it to be. You remember that verse about the wisdom of man being foolishness to God? You see, we want an answer that packages the mind of God into a definable box. Do you really suppose we can do this? God created us with intelligence, He knew we ask such questions. Sure, but He sure does love to let us get puffed up so He can humble us. It's a great way to kill pride. Seriously, if the answer to your question leads you to anywhere but in complete, total, jaw-dropping, on your face awe and wonder of GOD, you came to the wrong answer. What do i say to this? God is God and I am not! Aman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 God can never be surprised because He is outside of time and has all knowledge of all events. I think that we all have free will, but that God manipulates our personal environment and other people and events to ensure that His ultimate will is fulfilled. Just as He hardened Pharaoh's heart not to let the Jews leave Egypt. It was Pharaoh's choice not to let them go at first, then God just made it easier for him to refuse to let them go so that God could display His power and glory. He hardened Pharaoh's heart by manipulating his environment and his demon-possessed advisers. Just as God has manipulated our environment to make sure that we learned about Christ and that we would make the choice to accept Him. Of our own free will. But His perfect will. Are you saying God is a manipulater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 While we may be making choices, we were all created with a unique personality. Some are more stubborn than others. Some are more able to take God at his Word and believe in the Bible while others are skeptics. In other words, we were pre-programmed to a certain extent to be how we are. We were placed in differen't parts of the world with differen't cultures and religions. As such, a large part of our belief system and the decisions we make were set in motion before we were even created in the womb. The question in my mind is, how pre-programmed is our life? Are you a Calvinist? I am not sure how I come down on this matter? I can honestly see arguments for and against Calvanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 There is only one problem with what you are saying. God created Satan, and allows him to remain in the air space tempting people. Satan is evil, and God created him. He also allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, and the Bible seems to imply that God knew Adam would sin. In that way, one can say that God is responsible for evil because he doesn't stop it. He could easily speak the devil out of existence anytime he pleases. I have studied this issue for years, and I don't think it is clear cut how much control God takes over what happens? I was certain we had absolute free will at one time, but the more I have read the Bible and the more I have thought about the way things are, the less certain I am. there is no such thing as absolute free will, meaning there is never an unlimted number of choices for us to make. That does not mean we dont have free will. If you get to choose between 2 things or 1000 things, you still get to choose. I can see what you are saying. For example, do you beleive that the wife you chose was the only one God has for you? No matter who you chose, it would be His will. As Christians can we chose something and think we are in God will and yet be out His will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 12, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Are you saying God is a manipulater? I would say so. There were over 300 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fullfilled, do you think that was by accident, or by design? BY design!! So then everything that happens on earth and in heaven is Gods will, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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