Communion....

[ServingHim]

In John Chapter 6, the true presence is divinely demonstrated IMHO. At the beginning of the chapter, Jesus demonstrated the feeding of the body by the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, and the filling of five thousand people. Starting with verse 22 through the end, He told us we need spiritual nourishment for our souls as well.

In verses 26-27 He said, "...you seek Me, not because you have seen signs, but because you have eaten of the loaves and have been filled. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for that which endures unto life everlasting, which the Son of Man will give you." How can nothing more than crackers and grape juice fulfill these verses? These two foods definitely feed the body as did the loaves and fishes, but they do absolutely nothing for the soul.

In John 14:6, Jesus said He is the "Life" and in 6:56, He said, "He who eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, abides in Me and I in him." Abide means to live in.

Verse 53, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE WITHIN YOU." . . . Is consuming crackers and grape juice going to fulfill verses 53 and 56? Where is the symbolism?

So, compare John 6:56 above with John 15:6: "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."

John 6:56 clearly said that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood.

John 15:6 clearly said that if we do not, then we are lost. How can we be lost by failing to eat a symbolic gesture?

Count the number of times Jesus said, He is the bread, the living bread, that it is His flesh and it is His blood, and that we must eat of His flesh and drink His blood? He goes on and on...

In John 6:66 many walked away from Jesus and never returned (all of whom were His 'believing disciples', up until this point anyway when many left. In fact, it was all of those, then and now, who refuse to believe His words which He repeated over and over again.

John 6 is NOT symbolic. However, "It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (63), merely shows that we cannot accept this mystery in too human a way, by having an earthly view of things. John 3:6 says..."That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Verse 63 means that we should not have a carnal human understanding of His words, but a spiritual understanding. (also see John 8:15, Rom 8:1-13,15:27, 1Cor 3:1-4,9:11, and 2Cor 10:4.)

He who takes "The flesh profits nothing" as an excuse for denying the "True Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist (i.e. bread and wine), denies the incarnation and humanity of Jesus Christ...how can one accept God in Flesh, yet not Christ in Eucharist. To do this would be to take one verse and call it literal by itself, and all the while calling all of the other verses around it figurative, or symbolic.

"Amen, amen, I say to you, he who believes in me has life everlasting." John 6:47

"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." John 6:53

'Truly truly' ... a double emphasis? Jesus is double emphasizing that He means what He says ... it is TRUE.

The Greek word for "life" used in John 6:53, is "zoen" (zoen) which means, "divine life of GOD imparted to us". There are other Greek words for "life" that St. John could have chosen, such as "bios" (bios) which simply means "life". The fact that he chose the word that he did, lends great credibility to the literal meaning of this verse and with not a hint of symbolism.

[ServingHim]

"The words I have spoken to you are spirit" does not mean "What I have just said is symbolic." The word "spirit" is never used that way in the Bible.

If this were the case, when we see the verse that 'angels are messenger SPIRITS' do we then mean that angels are symbolic? How about when we see 'God is Spirit'? Do we then conclude that God is symbolic?

great questions, GS.

[Guest Called]

Here is one OneWay, that I was just led to. While Jesus is speaking to His disciples in John 6:48, Jesus said he is the bread of life, does that mean He was a big loaf of bread walking around?

I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:48-58

I don't think Jesus was a big loaf of bread walking around.

[ServingHim]

On the road to Emmaus... In Luke 24:13-35, there is the story of two of the disciples walking on the road to Emmaus shortly after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus joined them in their walk, but they did not recognize Him (16). He interpreted all the Scriptures for them that referred to Himself (27) and yet they still failed to recognize Him. It was toward evening and they invited Him to dine with them (29). Then something very dramatic happened as they reclined (30-31). Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and with that, they immediately recognized His true presence in the Breaking of Bread, the Holy Eucharist.

"And they themselves began to relate what had happened on the journey, AND HOW THEY RECOGNIZED HIM IN THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD." (35)

Did they recognize a 'symbol' of Him or truly His Presence? His Presence, His REAL Presence.

[BobTriez]

Now, if you would please cite specific scripture support for your position that God is One God in 3 persons please...no conjecture, not private interpretation; just pure and unadulterated Word of God.

Nope...I asked you.....it did not satisfy me. You ASSUMED I was refuting you yet I never stated either way. Now, the fact is ? I AM in disagreement with you, but the very fact that you feel you need to get defensive with me when I never stated my position on this matter is self evident that you are in disagreement with yourself.

As Paul told Timothy -

2 Timothy 2:24-26

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves.

You are in opposition with yourself here.....You have the Word of God....it stands on it's own. You may fight and wrestle with the Holy Spirit on this issue, not me.

Kinda neat really...I was just discussing this very thing ( those in opposition with themselves and the Word standing on it's own ) with a Sister in HIM just today.....Wow.....and here's a perfect example......Daddy is Good

God bless GS.....Go be like Jacob....go wrestle with the Most High God. Don't forget to buy a walking stick....remember the story ? He lost the wrestle....had a limp afterwards too.....Daddy is always right, but you may argue with Him if you choose.

Living for HIM,

Bob

[GoodSamaritan]

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

You miss the point of that verse. He's not saying His flesh profiteth nothing. How could he say this when he just told us that His flesh (sarx=greek word, meaning 'meat') gives us eternal life? You do not make the distinction between HIS flesh and THE flesh--two completely different things. ALL of Jesus' words are 'spirit and life', wouldn't you agree? So are we to say that Jesus' words were symbolic? Of course not.

The word spirit (pneuma in Greek) is never used anywhere in Scripture to mean symbolic. Can you show me one place where this is so (other than the one example you cling to)? Are angels mere symbols?

The word 'sarx', the greek word for flesh, is often used in the NT to describe the condition of our fallen human nature apart from God's grace. For example, paul says that if we 'are in the flesh', we cannot please God.(Rom 8:1-14)

He also tells us that 'the fleshly person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it because iti s judged spiritually.' (1 Cor 2:14). It don't take grace to proclaim that Communion is just wine and crackers. It does, however, take faith and 'spiritual judgement' to see and believe Christ's promise that He would give us His body, blood, soul, and divinity under the appearance of bread and wine. Those who are 'in the flesh' and operating in the realm of mere natural understanding can never see this.

Question: What did the Apostles and the first Christians believe? Did any of them believe Communion to be symbolic? If so, show us one single writing from any Church presbyter, bishop, deacon, etc. who demonstrates this belief to be present in the First Christians. Here's a quote from Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by Peter the Apostle:

"These heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again"

Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to Smyrnaeans,7,1(c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

Justin Martyr, taught by John the Apostle, said this:

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour,having been made flesh and blood for our salvation,so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word,and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished,is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

Justin Martyr,First Apology,66(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:185

Both of these men wrote this around 110 AD--possibly while the last original Apostle was still walking the earth. History does not support your symbolic argument.

Nor does logic. In Jewish culture, to 'eat one's body and blood' was to persecute someone, when used symbolically. Did Jesus really tell his most beloved that 'unless you persecute me, you'll have no life in you'? This is just not plausible, since he knew that it'd be the Romans who would do this, not his own Apostles.

Also, since we were to make this a perpetual occurrence, how could we persecute Jesus if he rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven?

GS

[GoodSamaritan]

You ASSUMED I was refuting you yet I never stated either way. Now, the fact is ? I AM in disagreement with you, but the very fact that you feel you need to get defensive with me when I never stated my position on this matter is self evident that you are in disagreement with yourself.

This argument from silence is weak. I merely made my case and have yet to see yours. I myself do not hold Scripture to be the sole rule of faith but gave you what you asked for anyway. If you disagree, your burden is to use the same standard you yourself set and state your case. What you have done is attempt the 'me thinks you doth protest too much' defense and that just doesn't fly, IMO.

Nobody got defensive in the least. Internet message boards are NO reason to make anyone defensive, IMO. I will be candid in making my case, however. I merely asked for your citations regarding other things to prove a point--that many of our doctrines are not explicit in Scripture. You seemed to ignore this point and explain it away as defensive posture. Will you make your case or continue to indict my perceived defensiveness?

GS

[One Way]

In Matthew 26:26, Jesus said, "Take and eat; THIS IS MY BODY."

In Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus said, "All of you drink of this; FOR THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT, WHICH IS BEING SHED FOR MANY UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS."

How does "THIS IS MY BODY" mean THIS IS A SYMBOL of MY BODY?

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

What kind of door is Jesus? Wooden double-doors? Metal? Drawbridge?

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

What form of ultraviolet ray is Jesus? Gamma, X? Or maybe He is a bulb? Incandescent? Fluorescent? Hmmm.

Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings

What kind of wings does God have? More importantly, what type of bird is He?

I could go on and on...

GS or SH, would you please address this post before continuing on saying the same thing over and over?

[ServingHim]

In Matthew 26:26, Jesus said, "Take and eat; THIS IS MY BODY."

In Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus said, "All of you drink of this; FOR THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT, WHICH IS BEING SHED FOR MANY UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS."

How does "THIS IS MY BODY" mean THIS IS A SYMBOL of MY BODY?

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

What kind of door is Jesus? Wooden double-doors? Metal? Drawbridge?

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

What form of ultraviolet ray is Jesus? Gamma, X? Or maybe He is a bulb? Incandescent? Fluorescent? Hmmm.

Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings

What kind of wings does God have? More importantly, what type of bird is He?

I could go on and on...

excellent questions one-way! And I SO understand where you're coming from. :il:

so when Jesus says ... I am the good shepherd . . . John 10:14, then He must have also been speaking symbolistically, right? Is he a 'symbolic' shepherd?

What about when He said he was the "I AM" (John 8:58)? Are we to continue to believe that He again was speaking in figurative, symbolic terms again . . . that He 'represents' God?

I believe that in John 6, Jesus spoke over and over again what he was trying to convey. No where does he go on and on about being the vine, the door, the light, etc. more than one or two times. Over and over again, Jesus said ... UNLESS YOU EAT MY FLESH and DRINK MY BLOOD, you have no life in you AND He continued with MY FLESH IS REAL FOOD. Turning it to say he was being metaphorical is trying to understand if from human terms. Do I believe he was being literal? YES. Do I completely understand it? NO. Do I Trust Jesus when He said that HIS FLESH IS REAL FOOD, and "TAKE (bread), EAT, THIS IS MY BODY"? YES. Can I scientifically PROVE that Jesus REAL PRESENCE is in the Bread? NO. DO I BELIEVE and HAVE FAITH THAT HE knows more about what I need than I do? YES.

Can we agree to disagree? YES, most certainly. Peace. :il:

[ServingHim]

GS or SH, would you please address this post before continuing on saying the same thing over and over?

I just did... :il: