An Evaluation of Evidence for the Age of the Universe

[spiritman]

You just stated that C may have varied in the past, and that this had a slight effect on the speed of light, therefore as I stated before Light speed can vary and is no longer constant, thanks for making my point. I truely believe that if God decided to push the speed of light beyond what you call the 'c" He can do it without tearing up the universe.

Sure thing, God certainly could have "pushed" the speed of light far beyond C. He just would have had to also make sure to supernaturally keep stars from collapsing and a host of other effects this would have produced. . .and then He would have needed to hide all of that to make it look like C has never changed more than 0.0006% some nine billion years ago. In other words, yes God could have built a deceptive universe in order to trick us.

Hello;

I'm new here, and a little confused about this conversation.

Is the idea being discussed that the speed of light can vary? If so, that's a pretty heavy claim to make. Are you really confident that you are in a position to refute the theory of relativity?

The point of calling the speed of light 'c' is that it is a constant. Physicists say we should not think of it as a velocity, but rather as a conversion factor between space and time. That is, it appears to be a LOGICAL constant.

Take another logical constant, Pi in geometry. Pi specifies the ratio between cicumference and diameter in a circle. We can be wrong about pi, or not know its true value, but the value itself will not change. We can't change Pi without changing the logical relationship of figures that are defined in terms of each other.

Hi Aiwa,

welcome; My point is that if the velocity of light has changed any at all, then the speed of light is not constant, here is a link from your own scientific community that states that the speed of light has changed over the years: speed of light changed

Since this information came from your own scientific community there shouldn't be a problem with it should there?

And if the speed of light has slowed down then in the past it was going at a much higher velocity wasn't it. Which brings me to the conclusion that the Universe is not as old as claimed.

[Guest Aiwa]

welcome; My point is that if the velocity of light has changed any at all, then the speed of light is not constant, here is a link from your own scientific community that states that the speed of light has changed over the years: speed of light changed

Since this information came from your own scientific community there shouldn't be a problem with it should there?

And if the speed of light has slowed down then in the past it was going at a much higher velocity wasn't it. Which brings me to the conclusion that the Universe is not as old as claimed.

Hi Spiritman;

This is a pretty tenuous claim you are trying to make. Have you read the article?

What I get from it is that scientists are proposing a theoretical redefinition of the speed of light to account for other theoretical considerations that are themselves based on logical constants. (Article: The speed of light is inversely proportional to alpha, and though alpha also depends on two other constants (see graphic), many physicists tend to interpret a change in alpha as a change in the speed of light.) The differences, in any case are so miniscule (Article notes : "translates into a very small increase in the speed of light") you would have a difficult time calculating them - and the possibility of any observable phenomena appears negligable.

In any case, I'm not sure why this website is supposed to represent 'my own' scientific community - and why should I be concerned about what they do or do not say? Also, notes that the 'New Scientist' is hardly representative of academic science. It is not a peer-reviewed forum, so they can say whatever they darn well want to.

Here's my point: I accept 'C' as a constant. If anyone wants to refute the claim, one is setting themselves in opposition to the theory of special relativity, the theory of general relativity, E=mc2, the world of nuclear technology, space travel and basically the history of technology in the last 100 years since Einstein wrote that paper.

..so it's a pretty heavy claim to make.

Cheers;

[Guest Aiwa]

Hi Aiwa,

You might find this an interesting read, and this research has been published: John Webb

Yeah, it's in much the same vein as previous, but thanks.

Look, I'm not standing up the infallibility of science, nor do I think it's a bad thing to examine the foundations of science.

I do think, though, that it's kind of silly to take a tenuous question as an implication that the whole scientific edifice is misguided. For Pete's sake, even Wikipedia doesn't take it too seriously. Quote: "Several studies have analysed the relative concentrations of radioactive isotopes left behind at Oklo, and most (but not all) have concluded that nuclear reactions then were much the same as they are today, which implies α was the same too"

It's interesting, but I wouldn't want to read too much into it.

[Guest smithtim]

I've always assumed most Christians DID believe in a universe that is around 14 billion years old.

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter how old the universe is?

Just curious.

yes it matters ... because the bible tells us its approx 6000 years old ... and if you say thats wrong your saying that the bible is wrong... which if that is true... what do you have to believe in....

[wyguy]

Y'all might find this interesting...

In No Time At All

[Guest]

Understanding

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3

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I've always assumed most Christians DID believe in a universe that is around 14 billion years old....

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter how old the universe is?....

yes it matters ... because the bible tells us its approx 6000 years old ... and if you say thats wrong your saying that the bible is wrong... which if that is true... what do you have to believe in....

Great Question Great Answer Wonderful Thread!

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To Those Who Will Not Believe

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

No, I Do Not Think So

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15

To Those Who Will Cleave To Jesus

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

No, I Do Not Think So

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

To The Truth Of God's Holy Book

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

Yes

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11

To The Testimony Of The Power Of The Almighty LORD Jesus The Christ

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

Yes

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

To The Tear And Prayer Provoking Fact Of The Coming Day Of The LORD

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2 Peter 3:9-11

Yes

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:3-6

To The Pride Crushing Belief In The Fiery Passing Of This Cosmos

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Yes

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Revelation 21:1-3

To The Sure Hope Of The City Built By God

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:9-10

Yes

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

See Man Will Quibble With His LORD Over This

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. Genesis 32:14

And Over That

And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. Genesis 32:15

But The Really Blessed Ones Loose The Wrestling Match

And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Genesis 32:26-28

And They Know God

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. Genesis 32:29

And, You See

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 32:39-40

Jesus

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion. I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion. Job 32:6-10

Love, Your Brother Joe

I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer. Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away. Job 32:20-22