Nearness of the Rapture

[Guest man]

Is believing combined with works enough?

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to Me in that day,

[exrockstar]

Is believing combined with works enough?

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to Me in that day,

[Guest man]

i see your point now. my fault

[exrockstar]

i see your point now. my fault

actually, that's pretty clever.

i gotta give you props for that.

[Guest]

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

He's not talking to your everyday believer.

Unless you believe that the everyday believer can cast demons out.

What's an "everyday believer"?

Every Day Believers

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matthew 7:23 (New American Standard Bible)

Walk And Talk With God

Rejoice evermore.

Pray without ceasing.

In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 (King James Version)

Trusting In His Love

I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about. God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do. Ephesians 2:8-10 (English Revised Version)

And Resting In His Finished Work

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Hebrews 9:11-12 (American King James Version)

Quoting A Fellow Faith Walker....

Today, there are no more sacrifices and no more Temple. Yet the religious are convinced that their sins will be atoned for by doing their best to keep the law and doing good works. Sadly, there is only one recipe for true atonement -- trusting in the One of whom was prophesied long, long ago -- Yeshua haMashiach, Jesus the Messiah. His blood has covered over all of us who believe so that our sins might be washed away, that we might have favor in the sight of God and that we might have our names inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life.

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers 1 Thessalonians 1:2

Love, Your Brother Joe

>>>>>()<<<<<

To Know Him

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18

Is To Love Him

We have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him 1 John 4:16

Do You Know God?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27

Does He Know You?

[Bible2]

Bold Believer said:

Works prove faith. No one can dispute that.

Works not only prove a living faith, they keep it alive, like breathing keeps a body alive (James 2:26).

Bold Believer said:

James tells us that.

James tells us that ultimate salvation requires works, and not faith only (James 2:24), just as Paul tells us that ultimate salvation requires works, and not faith only (Romans 2:6-8).

Bold Believer said:

Yet Paul tells us in Titus that salvation is NOT of works which we have done.

Titus 3:5 means that initial salvation is by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4). But Paul tells us elsewhere that both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Philippians 3:11-14), just as others tell us that (James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 6:10-12, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Bold Believer said:

John tells us that salvation is NOT of the will of man.

John tells us that initial salvation, being born again, isn't of the will of man (John 1:13).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation:

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Hebrews 3:12, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue in good works and obedience unto the end (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin that they might commit unto the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-40), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that (3 John 1:10).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that (1 Timothy 5:8).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39, 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the text of the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness unto the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome unto the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

Bold Believer said:

Do we even have a choice in the matter?

Just as we didn't have a choice (or do any works) with regard to being physically born, so we didn't have a choice (or do any works) with regard to initial salvation, being born again.

All unsaved people, whether elect or unelect, are like people who don't even know that they're blind in both eyes (they can neither see any need to believe, nor see any need to repent). When God miraculously grants elect people the gifts of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5) and repentance (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18) it's like they can suddenly see in both eyes. Repentance and faith initially don't involve the will (or any works), just as if a blind man is miraculously given sight by Jesus, both his eyes will automatically see without his will (or his works) having to be involved. But miraculously giving a blind man his sight also doesn't take away his free will. So he can subsequently wrongly employ his will to blind himself, such as by staring at the sun for too long.

In the same way, once repentance and faith are miraculously received by a person, he still has the same free will that he had before he got saved, and so he can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to do something like refusing to repent from his sins (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51), or choosing to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or choosing to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12).

Bold Believer said:

Are we not elect from the foundation of the world?

Yes, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). But election only assures that we'll be given initially-saving faith and repentance at some point during our lifetime (Acts 13:48, 2 Timothy 2:25); election gives no assurance of our ultimate salvation, because our election (like our subsequent initial salvation) doesn't take away our free will. After we become saved, we can wrongly employ our free will to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Bold Believer said:

It is God who draws, it is God who saves, it is Christ who died and rose again.

Amen. But there's still no assurance of ultimate salvation, because of free will.

Bold Believer said:

Bible2, you bring strange fire before the Lord.

Works of faith aren't strange fire before the Lord.

Bold Believer said:

Salvation is not man-dependent, it's Christ dependent!

While initial salvation isn't man-dependent (Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4), ultimate salvation is man-dependent, for both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Matthew 7:21, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Bold Believer said:

A man good enough to earn his salvation doesn't exist.

Not on his own (Romans 3:10), but once a man is in Christ he can become good enough to earn ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-8).

(Continued)

[Bible2]

(Continued)

Bold Believer said:

You go ahead and work for your salvation. The rest of us will trust Jesus.

It's not either/or, but both/and, with regard to ultimate salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

Bold Believer said:

Your understanding of Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 is flawed. The entire book of Hebrews is about covenant superiority. Rejection of the New Covenant is tantamount to rejecting Moishe's law. If those who willfully reject the Law of Moses die at the hand of two or three witnesses, those who willfully reject the New Covenant after being told the truth trample the blood of Christ treating it as an unholy thing and will suffer a greater punishment. Knowing the truth is not the same as BELIEVING it in faith.

Regarding Hebrews 6, Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even believers, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can in the end lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to formally renounce their faith in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 2:12, 1 Timothy 4:1, John 15:6, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto any man-made teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to keep from being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38, 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the coming tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take control of the entire earth and make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (cf. Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and receiving his mark on the forehead or the right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18); whoever does these things, no matter if they had been saved before, will end up suffering eternal torment in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4), before doing these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5). An example of saved people "overcoming" <G3528> or "getting the victory" <G3528> (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the coming Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and the devil by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11).

---

Regarding Hebrews 10, Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that saved people, people who have actually been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18, Romans 3:25), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Faith in Jesus' sacrificial blood only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

The immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25-29, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51).

Bold Believer said:

Finally, if you read Revelation 20, you find that it is the GODLESS who are judged by their works, not the Believers.

Revelation 20 doesn't contradict that believers will also be judged by their works at the future, second-coming judgment of every believer at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11). At that time, some believers will lose their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51), or because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or because of apostasy (Mark 8:35-38). That's why believers know the "terror" of the future judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Bold Believer said:

Oh...not that I am a pre-tribber or anything other than a last day rapturist, but what does this have to do with how near the rapture might be?

The way that the thread got into the current OSAS/OSNAS discussion was via the post-trib assertion that God has taught us ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3) so that we can be better prepared mentally to not be deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4,5,23,24,25, Mark 13:5,6, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful sufferings during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our wills to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

[Bible2]

PaulT said:

It's not a personal attack to point out a flaw in the person's reasoning, especially when the flaw is hidden deep within the verbiage.

What flaw are you referring to?

PaulT said:

Matthew 6:7 "When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words."

Matthew 5:37 " Let your word be "Yes, Yes' or "No, No'; anything more than this comes from the evil one."

It doesn't take two pages of posts to make a single point.

What point are you referring to?

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

True. A believers life will produce good works, but those good works are not the basis for retaining salvation, which is what Bible2 claims. Eternal salvation is by sola fide.

Initial salvation is by sola fide (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4), but both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Matthew 7:21, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

[Bible2]

man said:

Is believing combined with works enough?

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to Me in that day,