PENTECOSTALISM

[BobTriez]

2- Not hostile to anything or anybody.

[stevehut]

2- Not hostile to anything or anybody.

[Scudbuddy]

1- Your original question in this whole forum is classic Cessationism.

2- It would show that you are hostile toward the gifts and those who practice it.

1- I don't know what Cesationism is.

2- Not hostile to anything or anybody. I'm just unconvinced. You're not doing your cause any good with this reaction, Bob.

Steve,

If you don't know what it is, you sure know the principles and stances of Cessationism.

The gifts went out with the apostles.

God no longer needs to do miracles because we have the word of God.

That sort of thing.

And I have a hard time believing that someone who can quote their "questions" like you can is not familiar with the theology.

[stevehut]

And I have a hard time believing that someone who can quote their "questions" like you can is not familiar with the theology.

Like I've said before, Scudder, I don't have any unspoken agenda.

Over the past few months, I have tried to examine this issue from every possible angle. Some things just don't add up for me, that's all.

For example, someone in here showed me a historical timeline of Pentecostalism throughout history. But that timeline, in one place, had a gap of over 1000 years. This concerns me, for a person who claimed to be so knowledgeable about such matters.

If you're trying to persuade me of your belief, I'm all ears. But getting angry at me for asking questions, won't help.

[Aquilla]

Hello I am new to this board.

I have to say that for me the PROOF is only found through prayer. History isnt so complete nor is or was Christianity a Religion that could be fully documented, because of its rapid advance. As soon as one pointed to the firey zeal of one group another group sprung up elsewhere, such is the work of the Spirit.

As for the baptism of the Holy Spirit , their have been many, who did not speak in tongues when they recieved it.

Pentecostals get carried away in disrupting services , the cacophony of voices speaking in unknown tongues is a disruption in the tranquility of the Spirit.

Even so the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is real , and one has to seek the Father for it is he that bestows the gifts, and in seeking we must do so In Jesus name.

Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus is the one who Baptizes with Fire.

Pray for this , it is the Lords will as per these scriptures.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

See if one isnt born again , one cannot see the Kingdom of God, this means that one cannot percieve its existance, you are unaware of it, but when you are born again your spiritual eyes are open and you begin to see the works of God .

Here in John Chapter 3 verse 5 except a man be born of water and of spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of Water = Water Baptism

Born of Spirit = Holy Spirit Baptism.

Thats my take.

Now as for counterfits, I know the enemy , and his actions are to cause confusion, so speaking in tongues as evidence that someone has the Holy Spirit is backwards thinking, tongues may be the result of Holy Spirit Baptism, its not the cause, for God is the cause and he distributes liberally as he wills.

It is the Holy Spirit which brings us into fellowship with God.

Amen,

In Jesus Love

[Scudbuddy]

Steve,

Here I have combined Jedi and Nebulas excellent documentation. Those with an asterick (*) are of my research. All of these experienced signs and wonders and most included tongues.

I have kept out Clement, Origen, and several other saints due to not enough time to look up the exact years of their experience. I also did not list the good popes who actually served God honorably and with power. Like the Pope whose name escapes me who lived a miraculous lifestyle. When Attila the Hun invaded Europe, this Pope went out and met him to negotiate peace. In Attilas own words, he claimed that this Pope had Angelic host with him who told him to give this man whatever he asked for. Attila left Europe after that. It scared him silly.

I left out so many of the Catholic saints in this list because unless I could find more than just the Catholics historians to back em up, I knew that their names would mean nothing to you.

156 Montanus

165 Justin Martyr

202 Irenaeus

220 Tertullian

257 Novation

258 St. Lawerence*

346 Pachomius

367 Bishop Hilary of Poitiers

428 Theodore of Mopsueste

430 Augustine

460 St. Patrick experienced countless miracles inspiring many to go to Ireland.*

500-600 Irish Missionaries experienced the miraculous so much that it changed Ireland from a pagan country to a Christian country. Columba led this charge.*

861 Cyril and Methodius bring the full gospel to the Slavs with many miracles.*

1115 St. Bernard experiences many miracles.*

1195-1221 St. Dominics ministry experiences many signs and wonders.*

1210-1217 Waldenses

Mid 1200's Thomas Aquinas*

1220-1253 Clare of Montefalco

1340-1373 Bridget of Sweden

1373 Julian of Norwich*

1376 Catherine of Sienna*

1431 Joan of Arc*

Late 1400's Savonarola*

Early 1500's Anabaptist

Early to mid 1500's Louis Bertrand

1540 Martin Luther

1549 Xavier*

Late 1600's Quakers under George Fox

Jonathan Edwards 1729-mid 30's revivals*

1740's John Wesley

1740's George Whitefield*

Same period Thomas Walsh

1830 Edward Irving

Sometime after that Charles Finney

DL Moody

Charles Spurgeon

Now show me that 1,000 years between supernatural events in the church!

Btw, I am busy compiling your post. One thing I am sure of is this. That you are one of thee most knowledgeable posters on this forum. Which makes me doubt that you know nothing about Cessationism. It would be like Einstein not being aware of geometry. I don't think so. You do incredible research like me, and you show insight into what that research means. But you still see it all through a Cessationist bias. Which is clouding the way you judge matters. And with everything I have seen of your post, there is just no way you do not know what Cessationism is. Not a chance.

And as far as my being angry about your post. It is because like most Cessationist on Charismatic sites, you are trying to change us with your "truth." And I am documenting your post to prove that.

[stevehut]

1- All of these experienced signs and wonders and most included tongues.

2-1830 Edward Irving

3- That you are one of thee most knowledgeable posters on this forum.

4- Which makes me doubt that you know nothing about Cessationism.

5- You do incredible research like me, and you show insight into what that research means.

If you still want to persuade a skeptic, bring it on.

1- I have never believed that miracles ceased with the apostles. But you're admitting that some of these didn't exhibit the evidence of tongues?

2- From my research, it appears that Irving was the first modern teacher to identify tongues as the typical evidence of a Spirit baptism. Which, of course, is part of the basis for my skepticism.

3- Was this actually a compliment?

4- This term was new to me, here in WB. The concept is not.

5- Was this a compliment to me, or to you?

[Scudbuddy]

Steve,

God handed us the whole package. When God hands out one gift, the others are avaible to recieve also. The fact that some did not press through for the other gifts does not invalidate the one. Also, often when God does something dramatically supernatural, the most dramatic is the one documented. Healings or raising from the dead will do that to tongues. To take the position that if tongues wasn't documented it did not happen, or that it matters draws some peculiar positions for a Cessationist.

First, whether you realize it or not, you have taken the position that tongues is thee evidence of thee Holy Spirit. So if tongues is not documented, the other gifts do not matter. Whereas I take a position that it is one of thee evidences, but not thee only one. But unlike my Third Wave brothers, I think it is an important gift that should be heavily emphasized.

Second, your stance either says that only tongues went out, or that the gifts shown on my board are invalid. (The latter is classic Cessationism, but you knew that.)

And yes, I did compliment you. For Wellington to say Napolean was a great general is being realistic. For Napolean to say he is a Englishman is not. And the fact that I made reference to my research as well as yours is to hold to the position that my homework is as well done as yours. Think Moses. Moses wrote the book of Exodus. First chapter, it says "that there was no man as humble as Moses." Yet Moses wrote that verse. How humble is that. Humility can be realistic. Humility in the eyes of the Hebrew was not a feeling of humbleness, but obedience.

My stating that I had done my homework and you had too is not a proud remark. It is realistic. My point in my compliment of you was that it put you in a place that it is hard to believe that a man of your intelligence and thorough research is not familiar with the term "Cessationism." Which is my point that you have an agenda, and my coming documentation will prove it. Btw, in my researching your posistions, I found you pulling the same thing on other post, and posters like Bob Triez calling you up on it. Remember when a sister mentioned a "Spirit-filled fellowship", and you "asked" the question "What is Spirit-filled??" Bob Triez and another brother called you on it. We know what you are doing. You use questions as a weapon. You are very skillful at it. But your denying it does you no justice, and shows your disdain for our intelligence.

Again, you are way too smart to be that dumb. (That was a compliment with an accusation attached to it to make sure you do not have to ask me what you already know.)

[AllforJesustheLord]

So the question is do the gifts of the Holy Spirit move today, the simple answer is, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that means all His gifts continue, the power of The Holy Spirit is still around because The Holy Spirit is still around, and He will always be with His people.

If the person who does not see unknown in the scriptures does not see that, even if it is not literally in Greek, yet the context surely being, many times tongues is not understood, and to pray to interpret when you do not understand, if you do not see the obvious that tells me you do not choose to believe what Corinthians says. I will look up the Greek for everyone to make sure what you say is correct, because I am pretty sure the unknown tongues part is in the original Greek.

What I discovered is the unknown part, or word is not in the greek, but regardless a person can easily see the unknown part if the word is not understood is something that is true, and that is what Corinthians says, I reconize the tongues are tongues of men, in other words language people know this day, and age, now there can be different languages which people do not know in this day, and age, and those are the languages that God knows, they are the languages of angels, remember in the one chapter in Corinthians the scripture talks about speaking in tongues of men, and angels, both are possible, and both happen when God wants them to. If someone has God's Holy Spirit they have power from God to use the gifts when they want to if He has blessed them with that power, remember Jesus said, that He had power to summon angels to protect Him, and yet in that case He choose not to, because that would not have been The Father's will. So God can give His Holy Spirit to someone so they would have power to do things, and they need to make decisions on how to allow the gifts to move through them. Grace, mercy, and peace to you, in Jesus Christ's Name Amen.

[AllforJesustheLord]

I will look up the Greek for everyone to make sure what you say is correct, because I am pretty sure the unknown tongues part is in the original Greek.

I'd be interested to hear what you find.

If you call yourself a Pentecostal (and I don't know if you, in particular, do), the I'd suppose that you're identifying with the events of Pentecost....right?

The miracle of Pentecost, was that each person heard the disciples speak in their own language. These were not angelic lanugaues or ecstatic utterances, but the actual known languages of men.

The thought is here, that they heard them speak in there own languages, but think about the possiblities in this. Either they literally spoke in their different languages, or they spoke in languages they did not understand, but God may have given the ones listening the interpretation of tongues, both are possible.