The Pre-trib Fallacy

[Trinity]

Rancan, you 2 cents is right on target. Even Dad Ernie, in a post somewhere, recognized that the Church was missing from the opening of the seals.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

After the things of the Church.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings OT,

He will KEEP His Church from the destruction as He said He would!

This is a very old argument. Did you notice that they weren't RAPTURED?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[jc49]

Greetings jc49,

Unfortunately there is no precedence for you to escape the coming "great tribulation". Israel did not escape it, Jesus did not escape it, the disciples did not escape it, and all the martyrs from the cross forward DO NOT ESCAPE IT. You are deluding yourself if you think you are any different.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

This is for you and all the others that believe like you,I found it in the raptureready website,I hope that will help the brothers and sisters on the board to get encouraged.

I want underline that having different interpretations on the end times and His return doesn't divide me from those that believe different from me....WE( me first)SINNERS are SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

HE shed HIS precious blood on that calvary cross and paid the price for ALL that believe.So our unity is in HIM.Concerning the end times,I believe that takes study and prayerful dependence on THE INTERPRETER( THE HOLY SPIRIT) and we shouldn't boast or slander anyone who believes different from us,whatever(pre/mid/post Trib) belief they held..ok?

Lovre in Christ and may we ALL who bng to HIM be found adoring Him at HIS FEET,

God Bless us ALL and give strenght and encouragement in this very hard difficult and perilous times we are living in.

"You folks probably have no idea how many times a day I receive e-mail messages from tribulation saint wannabes who write to encourage me to rethink my belief in the pre-trib rapture. Because Rapture Ready is now one of the leading sites on the subject of the rapture, I'm constantly receiving messages that challenge my pre-trib view.

Many of these people rant about how I'm setting all my readers up for the big Antichrist deception. I'm constantly being told that the pretribulation rapture doctrine is the "great apostasy" and that anyone preaching this view is an agent of the devil.

Most of these people are so much in love with the idea of a post-trib rapture that they don't even bother to validate their view with Scripture. I would estimate that 90 percent of the people who write me never quote a single verse from the Bible.

If for some odd reason the rapture fails to occur before the tribulation, they believe despondent Christians will mistake the false messiah for the real one. Of course, nowhere in the Bible does it say this type of scenario will take place.

For the sake of the argument, granting the possibility that the rapture transpires at a later time, there's no logical reason for a Bible-believing Christian to be tricked into following the Antichrist. It's normally the post-trib folks who are the most vocal about their predictions of mass defections from the faith.

I think telling the difference between the Antichrist and Jesus Christ will be as easy as telling the difference between a $5 watch sold at Wal-Mart and a $5,000 watch made by Rolex. Because the Bible teaches we will be raptured to meet the Lord Jesus in the air, no man on earth could possibly qualify as the Messiah. I would simply say, if you haven't been raptured yet, keep waiting for the real Savior.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Th 4:16-17).

Because Revelation proclaims Jesus will return with great power and majesty, it's pure folly to follow after a political leader that appears on the scene via a humble stage door.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:14-6).

The most disturbing error I find with the pro-tribulation crowd is the belief that Christians are promised special protection from the tribulation horrors. Some people try to use pre-trib Scriptures like Revelation 3:10 to claim God will protect Christians, but most use their own logic to conclude God's grace will allow us to stay perfectly safe those seven long years.

The Bible repeatedly states that tribulation saints will face a strong likelihood of being martyred under the Antichrist's demonic rule. Many so-called scholars are able to read the following Scriptures and conclude the passages only suggest that a mild level of persecution will occur during the tribulation

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev 13:7).

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev 13:10).

"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev 13:15).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev 14:12-13).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

Jesus made His own prediction about how bad the global persecution of believers will be during the tribulation. He added an ominous warning that some people will betray one another.

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another" (Mat 24:9-10).

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be" (Mark 13:19).

During the tribulation period, the Jews will suffer horrendous persecution. The prophet Zechariah predicted that two-thirds of the Jewish people will perish. If 66% of Israel is wiped out, where does that leave the poor Gentile Christians?

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zec 13:8-9).

I've read tens of thousands of messages over the years and I've searched through numerous post-trib and pre-wrath web sites, and I can only recall finding maybe one or two people who realized they would likely be martyred for their faith. The majority of these folks have the bizarre, joyous view of the coming tribulation that simply makes a mockery of the Bible's dire warnings. They also seem to think they're going to be able to walk up to the Antichrist, poke him in the nose, and say, "OK buster, I've got you all figured out."

Clearly, we have an overabundance of the type of bravery Peter and the other disciples briefly displayed in the Garden of Gethsemane before they all betrayed Jesus. The Roman soldiers displayed no desire to apprehend Jesus

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings JC49,

If this is what you believe, I feel sorry for you that you do not know the scriptures very well.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest Coldbourne]

Greetings Dad,

I find myself once again drawn into discourse, though I planned to maintain a read only status.

Your response to me was incomplete at best, and did not give any accounting to the quotes I called into question. Your response in a biblical sense was lacking only a little less, for though they at least were presented, they were not accurate.

Today is the day of the Laodician church spirit, it is most predominant in these days. This is the church that "God will spew out of His mouth"; it is the day of the Great Apostasy (the falling away); the day when men will no longer listen to sound doctrine.

I know no better way to refute your claims then by simply giving you the scripture you reference. Revelations 3:15-17

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked

I see no reference to a loss of doctrine mentioned in this passage. It was due to their lack of commitment that God found them in disfavor.

Also, I have found no references to "Apostasy" mentioned in the bible. As Apostasy is a Catholic term, do you mean APOSTASY A FIDE? If so, then you are referring not to deception, but to the abandonment of the Christian Faith.

The only others options are APOSTASY AB ORDINE and APOSTASY A RELIGIONE, and I doubt that you are advocating that people will fall away from the priesthood or will break their religious vows.

Thus being the case, you are possibly referencing 2 Timothy 4:3,4

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

I would not be throwing the first stones is such a case, as you also seem to hear and interpret only what supports your views.

As for Luke 9 and 1 Timothy 4, I find that you twist them out of context, and provide no supporting scripture for your interpretations.

The basis for your arguments hinge on your opinion and personal use of exegesis and Hermeneutics. You maintain that your way is the only view that is truth, and though I may be inclined to agree on certain points, I will not fully agree on your interpretations. As I have said before, there is more than one topic within the Bible, you would do well to read the scriptures that encase those that support your theories.

2 Tim 2:23-26

Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

1 Tim 1:4-7

These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

By using condescending and snide remarks, you do more harm to your position then good. In all honesty, as I have said before, you make an excellent case. I do still, however, hold that not all of your reasoning is sound. More so, your disregard of possible flaws within your theological views almost guarantee a deviation from truth. As it is written (Galatians 6:3-5)

If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.

Titus 3:9-11

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned

I do not mean to be overly critical, but if you continue to verbally bash in the manner that you currently cling to, then you are in error. James 4:1,2

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.

Again, I am not attempting to discredit you, nor your beliefs. I hope that you see that I am not "repaying insult with insult, but with blessings"(paraphrase 1 Peter 3:9)

It would serve you well, I believe, to step back and take a moment of peace to look to your own heart, and to your motivations. It is my hope that you will one day adhere to 1 Peter 3:15,16

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

In Christ,

Coldbourne

Edited October 13, 2004 by Coldbourne

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Coldbourne,

I know no better way to refute your claims then by simply giving you the scripture you reference. Revelations 3:15-17

QUOTE 

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked

I see no reference to a loss of doctrine mentioned in this passage. It was due to their lack of commitment that God found them in disfavor. Also, I have found no references to "Apostasy" mentioned in the bible. As Apostasy is a Catholic term, do you mean APOSTASY A FIDE? If so, then you are referring not to deception, but to the abandonment of the Christian Faith.

The only others options are APOSTASY AB ORDINE and APOSTASY A RELIGIONE, and I doubt that you are advocating that people will fall away from the priesthood or will break their religious vows.

Thus being the case, you are possibly referencing 2 Timothy 4:3,4

QUOTE 

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Try this verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Strong's Greek Concordance

646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f

AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

As you can see, this is NOT a Catholic term, but what was originally written IN THE GREEK.

The day will come when basically ALL the gentiles that will be saved, will have entered into the Kingdom of God, they will have come into their "fulness" as revealed by Romans 11:25. Subsequent to that ALL Israel shall also come into THEIR fulness - see Romans 11:12. Now read Deut 4:26-31, and you will find that the Jews will come into the "fulness" of their salvation in days of trouble, even in the latter days. This is referring specifically to the "great tribulation" mentioned in Mt. 24:21, and if you can accept it in Revelation 7:14.

Now have you noticed that the "church" is not mentioned AFTER Rev. 3? Also, don't you find it interesting that the Laodician Church is the LAST church mentioned? Now when you put all these scriptures together, you should SEE that it is THAT Church that becomes APOSTATE, AND from it comes the False Prophet (man of sin), who then leads that church into the maws of Babylon. They will NO LONGER LISTEN TO SOUND DOCTRINE, once the "fulness of the gentiles" have been completed.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie