The Pre-trib Fallacy

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

You have been listening to my strong rebuttals against this doctrine for some time now and in fact I have been called "fanatical", which of course I am. I see the result of the pre-trib doctrine as the loss of many Christians from the fold because of this great deception that is being preached in these days. We have always had "false prophets" among us, but in these days they are rampant, they are everywhere! It seems EVERYONE has their OWN agenda, and it is far and few between where "two can walk together in agreement" on anything let alone this most controversial of subjects. So please bear with me and read this. These are the reasons, I believe, that this FALSE doctrine must be terminated among the "saints of God".

1) The emphasis of Jesus as well as the rest of the New Testament is "to be ready", "to be prepared", for NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR, not the Son, nor the angels, nor any one of us, ONLY the Father knows. How true, how true, how true. This is thrown in my face an awful lot these days, and it is like many want to remain blinded to the reality of what is coming upon them.

No one wants to hear bad news. No one wants to suffer trials, tribulations and persecution, that is just the nature of our "flesh". I do not willingly poke myself in the eye because I want to see if it feels bad. But the reality is folks, that Jesus makes it clear that "while we are in this world, we SHALL suffer tribulation". This is NOT only outward persecution that comes from the enemy, such as we see in China today against the Christians who are being thrown in jail for their beliefs. Their houses of worship are being destroyed. But persecution also comes in the form of "temptations". We are inundated today with every vile thing imaginable. We turn on the TV or listen to some radio stations and are bombarded by sexual innuendo, or outright pornography, as through films and the internet. We have groups that "name it and claim it", that is the Word of Faithers, that preach a get rich gospel, all the while lining their own pockets. We have the abortion issue, we have the homosexual agenda, and we are constantly bombarded by these things. In many places right now in the U.S. you can be jailed for condemning these things as sin, you are labeled intolerant, a racist, a bigot. Our children are subject to such outrages in the Public Schools like we have never seen before. If anyone is interested in these things, you can get acquainted with them through Christian ministries such as "The Voices of the Martyrs" and the ACLJ - "American Center for Law and Justice" run by Jay Seculo. You can find these and others that will give you a shocking view of what is happening in the world today.

But, I'm sure, many of you would rather not hear this. You would rather bury your head in the sand and just let it go away, AS IF IT WOULD!

Now I am not a "Doom and Gloom-er" as some might think, and neither am I an optimist nor a pessimist, but I AM A REALIST. I have the Word of God upon which to STAND (important word here), and the more I know of it and incorporate it into my life through the work of the Holy Spirit, I am NOT afraid of what is to come. The Lord tells us plainly: "Fear not him who can destroy the body, but FEAR HIM who can destroy both body and soul in Hell!" It is HE that I fear, and conversely, it is ALSO HE that I deeply Love and I Love those who LOVE HIM.

Persecution, trials and tribulations are only going to get worse folks. Jesus says it this way:

Mark 13:21-23 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Matthew 24:11-13 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

BUT THOSE WHO HAVE BOUGHT INTO THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE, will NOT be prepared for these days. Many, oh dear, so many will follow the FALSE PROPHETS who will say "This way to Jesus" or "There He is, let's follow Him". Why, you may ask, when so many wonderful and great Christians have bought into this doctrine? To be blunt, it is because they have refused to believe the truth and have instructed many in an "escapism mentality". All the pre-tribbers out there will follow after the FALSE PROPHET, because they have been sent a strong delusion. They won't realize it, but they will have bought into the "Mark". They will be prospering and their churches will be growing and all those "others" that have LEFT THE CHURCH were only Hypocrites and Self Righteous Do-gooders and it will be said of them that they are a burden on society and the well-being of the whole world. Ecumenism shall reign and if you don't buy into its agenda, you will be sought out and persecuted and ultimately killed, by the very people to whom the Saints are trying to minister, JUST AS JESUS WAS. This is the plight of the TRUE Christian. WE SHALL ALMOST ALL OF US DIE FOR OUR FAITH. The small remnant that remains of the TRUE Christians will be the ones who are "raptured", "caught up" at the Last Trumpet of God.

In order to prevent this from occurring, which of course, it will not, Christians need be taught TODAY of the "Coming Persecution". However, at least SOME may be saved from the "fire" if they are prepared aforetime. This IS NOT AN ESCAPIST MENTALITY. It is REALITY folks. It's coming AND YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN IT.

God has NEVER promised that YOU WILL ESCAPE the coming Holocaust against the Evil that is in this world, but by example of the lives of believers from the Old Testament through the New Testament, we KNOW that He will KEEP US THROUGH IT. Oh, how many are going to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire because they followed the False Prophet and departed from SOUND DOCTRINE.

2) One of the most important events that occur during those last days is the salvation of ALL Israel, as prophesied in Romans 11. This event will be so staggering because of the result, it will be nigh on impossible to eclipse, except for the coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The majority of pre-tribbers believe they will be "out of here" during those days, and yet those are the very days in which we are COMMANDED by Romans 11:30-31 to minister the Gospel of the Kingdom to ALL Israel. Yes, today we are called also, but until those days, their hearts for the most part are sealed against the Gospel and they are enemies to us on account of the Gospel.

But the pre-tribbers don't see it that way. They believe the church will be gone and that somehow Israel is going to be reborn as believers by some miraculous event that will occur, even the idea that the pre-trib rapture will make them jealous and thus they will seek out God. BUT WHAT DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY?

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

and again:

Romans 11:31-32 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Again, Jesus came unto HIS OWN. He was sent to save that which was lost. That is to the Lost Sheep of Israel. For the Gentiles sake their "return to righteousness with God" was cut short. Therefore God set another day in which Israel WILL receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it is intended for the Christians, mainly Gentiles to take that message to them. Jesus IS NOT going to COME AGAIN and LEAVE THEM BEHIND. In the parable of the sheep, Jesus left the 99 to go seek out the one sheep that was lost. THAT IS FAITHFULNESS, THAT IS WHAT JESUS IS GOING TO DO. NONE THAT GOD HAS GIVEN HIM, EXCEPT FOR THE SON OF PERDITION, SHALL BE LOST.

3) Now we know these things regarding Israel:

ISRAEL TODAY IS BLINDED:

Romans 11:7-10 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

THEIR SALVATION, "THE FULNESS OF ISRAEL" IS YET FUTURE:

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

BUT "WHEN" THEY ARE BROUGHT IN TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD:

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So consider what Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Eph 2:16-22 And that he might reconcile both (JEW & GENTILE) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So when the Jews are brought into the Kingdom, we shall have such great joy and manifestations of God's POWER among us that it will be indescribable. We also will know that the "resurrection" (life from the dead - Rom 11:15) is immediately around the corner. So the RESURRECTION THAT COMES FIRST WILL OCCUR AFTER THE JEWS ARE BROUGHT INTO THE KINGDOM. Then a short time after this the "catching away" of the saints that are alive and remain shall occur.

This is not part of the mindset of the pre-tribbers. They in fact do not want any part of these last days events to see ALL Israel saved. How unfortunate for their ESCAPISM mentality.

4) And lastly, but perhaps not, my major complaint about the pre-trib rapture doctrine is that IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL. They point to what they think are the fallacies of all other views, particular the post-trib, or post-trib prewrath view and then delight with glee that the scriptures MUST BE SPEAKING OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. I wish you people would WAKE UP. This is absolute NONSENSE and those who preach it, their works are going to go up in smoke, as if that was bad enough. What is REALLY BAD is the number of lives lost to the Beast because they did not preach "what was to come", and "how to stand fast in the face of persecution". These poor lost souls will have only themselves to blame, BUT YOU WILL KNOW that YOU were the cause of their following the False Prophet into the maws of the Beast and his Babylon.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[BobTriez]

Hi Dad Ernie!

Hey, I see you put a LOT of work into this thread, but may I ask a simple question ? How is this a "salvation issue" ? I have never commented on my position of Pre/Mid/Post Trib for one reason - it causes division and I think Paul made it clear in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 that we are not to be divided. That being said, very few folks around here know what I believe and why.

Anyway, back to my question....I certainly do not feel it's WRONG to discuss this topic - that's not what I'm saying.....what I AM saying is how does it benefit the body of believers to cause them to doubt their salvation based on this particular topic ?

I'm not being argumentative, please don't read me wrong....I sincerely would like to know. I have some VERY dear brothers ( and even more sisters ) that believe in Pre-Trib and I KNOW that I'll see them in heaven ( and maybe even on the way up )

Just trying to get a feel for why this debate gets so heated and why it's so important....I've never really discussed it before.

Thanks & God bless!

Bob

[gypc]

The secret rapture

Dad Ernie, I'm in agreement with ya!

[Dad Ernie]

Thank you Bob for your inquiry.

In most of my posts regarding eschatology, I have been fairly docile. That seems to be a thing of the past. When Trinity posted his PROOFS of a pre-trib rapture, THEN the debate got heated. I see his "proofs" as exceptionally deceitful and I have gone through each point to deny his claims. But of course, there have been others who have came on this forum and STRONGLY pushed that hideous doctrine, denying the possibility of any other, and I have often responded "in kind".

For those who have remained open to discussion, willing to learn, even as I learn, THEN I have been patient and without any harsh words. But this post of Trinity's really got to me for the reasons I have cited in this thread.

I never said that those who "preach" this doctrine are UNSAVED, but that their "works" would go up in smoke at the Bema Seat of Christ.

With an escapism mentality, many, many Christians are going to be deceived that before the appearance of the False Prophet, they are going to be "outta here". This is absolutely the wrong mentality to have. If and when we go through the "great tribulation" (that is unless we die first), we must be prepared to "put on the whole armor of God AND to stand" against all the wiley tricks of the enemy. We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. The POWER I am speaking of is the POWER of the Two Witnesses who demonstrate clearly the "power of Elijah" which shall be upon the TRUE Christians in those days. Those days are going to be tough, REAL tough and if they were not cut short, not even the elect would survive. Now THAT'S bad, and that is why it is called the GREAT tribulation, because there has never been anything like it, nor shall there ever be again, EVEN THE HOLOCAUST was not as bad as it is going to be in the Great Tribulation.

I have belonged to many, many forums in the last several years, and I currently attend the Christian Forum as well as this one. It is unbelievable the number of weak believers, believers on milk in great need of meat. Believers who are easily deceived and as soon as the next "wind of doctrine" passes by, they lap it up because it "tickles their ears". So, I am greatly upset with wolves and false prophets and those who are deceived and "come to deceive", even though they have bought into the lie and don't even know it. I have shown by scripture after scripture the unsoundness of that terrible doctrine, and yet the pre-tribbers minds here are absolutely blinded to the truth.

Now you may wonder why I think eschatology, and the proper exegesis of it is so important. There are NUMEROUS reasons why, but mainly it is to be prepared, but WHY must we teach it accurately and truthfully? Don't we do that with the rest of the scriptures? Is the "trinity" an important doctrinal point? I think so, and even Trinity has been withstanding opposition to this important doctrine. And so it seems there are many doctrines that must be defended.

In my study of exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, which is God's POWER UNTO SALVATION, I have verified these 5 important parts which should be conveyed to an unbeliever, perhaps over a period of time, but none-the-less they each are VERY important for the Christian to know and understand in order to stand against all the wiles of the enemy. They are:

1) The BIRTH of Jesus Christ

2) The LIFE of Jesus Christ

3) The DEATH of Jesus Christ

4) The RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ

5) The COMING AGAIN of Jesus Christ

Now if you don't think this last one is important, please consider the following:

1 Cor 15:12-24 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The main gist of this is of course Christ's resurrection, HOWEVER, what it means for US is OUR EVENTUAL resurrection, and if we go about "preaching the RESURRECTION OF CHRIST and it is FALSE, then indeed WE ARE MEN MOST MISERABLE, because that would mean NO RESURRECTION for us either."

Now, YOU tell me, HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT? And to know and understand ABOUT the RESURRECTION? Only ONE place, TWO little words in the WHOLE Bible refers directly to the "rapture", and yet a very elaborate ESCAPIST doctrine has been built on it, and a few have made a huge profit on the gullibility of so many Christians by buying into that false doctrine.

Wouldn't you say that this is an important doctrinal point of which to defend?

Blessings & Love,

Dad Ernie

[Trinity]

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings GypC,

Dad Ernie, I'm in agreement with ya!

Thank you. I "glanced" at your site and probably agree with all of it. We actually have several post-trib or post-trib pre-wrath believers on this board but they have been strangely silent. If you have been observing this forum (Eschatology) you can see that the pre-tribs cannot defend one iota of their doctrinal position with proper exegesis of the scriptures, and they lapse into inuendo and making fun of me for my "fanaticism" on this particular doctrine.

It amazes me that they contend so hard for such a doctrine as offering PROOFS and then complain when those PROOFS are shown to be their own erroneous thinking.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine is SO SECRET, that even God doesn't know about it.

Thanks again for speaking up.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Yahsway]

Bless you D. Ernie, Your post was the best ive ever read concerning the "rapture".

I am in full agreement with you. I used to believe in a pre-trib escape simply because my pastor said so. But then I studied and asked the holy spirit to guide me in this thru scripture.

I want lay it all out here because your post would be a hard act to follow so to speak. But I will tell you something that i believe the holy spirit also showed me.

When Yeshua was arressted in the garden, the sheep scattered for fear. Peter denied knowing Yeshua. When just right before Yeshuas arrest, Peter takes a sword and cuts off the ear of one of the soldiers. Peter was brave enough when he was in the presence of Yeshua, but after the arrest, he is scared, denies Yeshua, I think scripture says he cursed, and this is when first a servant girl accusses him of being with Jesus of Galilee.

My point is this, well, Ill let scripture make it for me.

Matt 24:9-13 "then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets rise up and decieve many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Here in America our bread is buttered very nicely, we do not think that we will have to go thru anything for the Names Sake. Well just get on the rapture bus and fly away. I do not see it that way anymore. Yes, we are saved, but we may be tested just as Abraham was, Do I think many will lose their salvation if they cant endure? I am not their judge. But I know if anyone denies Him, or takes the mark of the beast, they are lost and seperated from Him forever.

Judas, who was one of the 12, walked with Yeshua also, but what did he do? He betrayed Yeshua with a kiss. Just like the verse above many will be offended, will betray one another. In order to betray someone, you first have to know them, be their friend. Maybe even a family member.

The word betray .means to deliver one up to an enemy, to prove faithless, to disappoint, decieve.

Luke 22:46 Then He said to them, "Why do you sleep? Rise and pray, lest you enter into temtation.

I think that is what D. Ernie is also saying here at this post. Amen!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yahsway,

What a great example using Peter as a reference. How true. I had never saw that before, but I can easily relate it to those days that the Beast wages war against the saints. Christians just don't realize that Satan has been around for thousands of years and knows the Word of God better than we do. He knows our weak points and our strengths, he is not going to attack us at our strengths.

I see "ecumenism" as being appealing to the masses because after all aren't we "supposed to love, love, love"? We are NOT called to that. We are called to "righteousness" and defense of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in THAT day, we are to have the "full armor" of God upon us that we might stand. That day could be today, maybe tomorrow and it takes prayer and preparation in the Word, and knowing and walking with the Savior. We need to be prepared, as Jesus was in the desert to "resist the temptation" of the enemy by the use of Every Word that Proceeds from the Mouth of God. How many Christians today would have known WHICH verses to use, as Jesus did when He was tempted? I have a fairly good handle on the Word, yet, I ponder the Words Jesus spoke then, and I just shake my head and how little I know.

Thank you for speaking up. Perhaps if a few more could offer their testimony, we may be able to convince the pre-tribs that they are adhering to a false doctrine.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Trinity]

Romans 5:9

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Ephesians 5:6

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Let no one say that his wrath is going to be on the Obedient, because its going to be on the disObedient.

1 Thessalonians 1:10

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Trinity,

How sad, that you "just don't get it":

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The "great tribulation" through which multitudes beyond count shall go occurs first, THEN at the 7th trumpet the resurrection and rapture occur, THEN God's WRATH is poured out upon Babylon.

All your hard work - for NOTHING.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie