munari Posted May 24, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2002 I will also defer to Astralis on this, but I believe that you Teri, FHA, and Traveller have just pretty much summed up in your definitions of faith what the Catholic idea of faith is, that it is comprised of faith (intellectual), hope (of salvation), and charity (love from God and love of God). These things you have described are all actions we take, they are works we perform to grow in faith and love of God... They increase our faith, they are gifts from God. It takes studying his word, prayer, fellowship and a firm belief. Astralis, please correct anything I have misstated and clarify where need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For Him Alone Posted May 24, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 396 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/04/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/26/1961 Share Posted May 24, 2002 I personally don't see a link between faith and intellectual knowledge. In fact, they contradict each other. Here's an example: I am holding in my hand a paper clip. You cannot see it, but I assure you it is there. If you know me to be an honest person, will you have FAITH that it is there? Do you trust that something is true without actual factual proof? That is faith. Well, let me ruin your faith by opening my hand and showing you the paper clip. I have just proven that it is there, so faith is GONE. Not Necessary anymore. Now you have proof, which requires NO faith. In fact you cannot have faith AND proof! I have faith I saw that...nah, doesn't mean the same thing. You KNOW what you saw. You have Faith in what you Believe without proof...am I being redundant? hey, I make sense now and then, huh? OK, OK, my pastor used that in church 2 weeks ago. Still...you'll get it, I'm sure. Man, I could've taken credit for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted May 24, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2002 And I want to say that I didn't post what I did above to make a challenge or to say the RCC is right, just to clarify and show you guys that the RCC idea of faith isn't all that different from what you guys believe... And what I mean by intellectual faith is the belief that God exists without proof. Its believing in your mind that He is there. But, God hasn't opened His hand yet, not to us anyways. We have faith without proof. Yes, we have a book (and faith that the authors weren't lying), yes, we have personal experiences (which we connect to God, but we don't have proof of that connection), but we did not see Christ come back from the dead. We did not witness his miracles. We have not physically seen God. God will open his hand on the last day and show us the paperclip. Until then, its all faith. However, all of those things I have just stated are intellectual statements, things I believe in my mind. That's my understanding of "intellectual faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For Him Alone Posted May 24, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 396 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/04/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/26/1961 Share Posted May 24, 2002 WE AGREE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest astralis Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 The demons do not want to join Jesus team. they do not believe that they are doing anything bad. They think they are justified in all that they do. They don't want to stop doing what they are doing. Â They don't believe that the side of Jesus is the right side, even though they know that He Is. They think that there is another way to attain a lofty place in heaven. So, believing in Jesus isn't enough? Â You have to join His team as well? Â I would have to agree but this would contradict Faith Alone = Assurance of Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For Him Alone Posted May 24, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 396 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/04/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/26/1961 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Salvation by Faith = following Him, not just knowing He existed. Why are you picking this apart when it is fairly obvious that demons know christ exists and have gone against Him? My terrorist comparison was a pretty good one. I know they exist, but I choose to turn from them. I am not a terrorist just by believing they are real and knowing what they are capable of. Sorry, but I don't get what you're driving at here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest astralis Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 FHA, Â Sorry, I haven't made it very clear, I guess. Â I agree, you can turn away from the terrorists even though you believe they're terrorists [your analogy] but can you believe in Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, and turn away from him although you still believe he's the Lamb of God and be "saved" and be assured of going to heaven? Â You have to admit, the demons know who he is and believe in him. Â This is what I think is being said when people claim that if you believe in Jesus and say you believe in Him then you're assured of going to heaven. Â There seems to be a lot of double-talk. Â Either you're assured of going to heaven if you believe in Him or you're not assured of going to heaven. Â Is there a middle gound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For Him Alone Posted May 25, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 396 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/04/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/26/1961 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Nope, I don't think so. You're saved if you believe and follow Him. Those who are really saved won't want to behave like demons. Everyone backslides or sins, but not everyone is a demon. Put it like this: Demons know and reject. To know and accept is salvation. Different. If someone truly believes and accepts, then their life and their works will REFLECT that. In other words, you can't talk the talk and not walk the walk and still be assured. No, God is not fooled. Hypocrites are definitely not assured of Heaven, as they are the worst of liars--I think God is pretty clear on this, too! Now maybe that's where the faith + works thing gets confusing to some. Because if you have faith, the works will naturally follow as you obey the Lord. :thumb: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted May 25, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted May 25, 2002 The devil has not accepted Christ as his Saviour. Â He does not want to be saved. Â I disagree with the comment that he doesn't know he is doing anything wrong. Â He knows and he loves it. Â He is evil. Salvation is not something you can work for. Â It is a free gift, so if you can't do anything to get it, you can't do anything to lose it either. Â At the moment that you accept Christ into your life, the Holy Spirit dwells in you, sealing you for the day of redemption. Â David, strayed from God, he sinned hidiously. Â He was apart from God for a year. Â But when he came back he repented of his sin and asked God to restore the JOY of his salvation, not his salvation. Â He was still saved even though he was in sin and God did not just give up on him. Jonah left the presence of God and sinned. Â God saw fit to throw him in the belly of a whale to get his attention and call him to repentance. If you are a child of God, He does not leave you, you are in the family forever. Â You may stray but He will work on you in whatever means necessary to bring you back. Praise God for His grace! Â I am indeed saved, today, tomorrow and forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest astralis Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 You're saved if you believe and follow Him So, you're saying, you're saved if you believe AND follow Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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