wordsower

Well, I'm glad someone recognized it. and the theif on the cross is at least one christian that was saved without baptism and Jesus said He would see him in paradise, that day, so he obviously died that day. One thing that no one has pointed out.............salvation does not mean sanctification, they are two separate. A person CAN be saved without ever realizing the full potential of what God has planned for their life. This is why the bible says some make it just barely: 1 Cor. 3: 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man

Guessing you think I'm bashing, I sat on it all night before jumping to a response and since you want to know who cares? I do. I was raised in a cult and spent 26 long years in that web of lies and I care if others are misled and deceived and placing their salvation in the hands of an organization instead of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I stand firm on the fact that Jesus is the only way to the Father and any church that teaches otherwise is a cult. I make no apologies for that.

I worked with several Church of Christ folks in Nashville. What I found with them is that they are terrified to go to another church, beliving that theirs is the only true church. They don't believe in any sort of instruments in church and think other churches are sinning by having them, they believe you HAVE to be baptised or you will not be saved. Even one told me that if you are on your way to be baptised and die in a wreck, you will go to hell. Despite all of these wacky rules, I didn't find any of them to have a relationship with Christ or behave in a Godly manner at all, they just went to their ritualistic church once a week. Any church that teaches you have to do something other than believe in Jesus to be saved is a cult. Only Jesus saves, not baptism. It's a cult.

First, God created time, so outside of this world it all just "is" --that takes a lot of thought, but anyways......in our system of time, there was an appointed time for the new covenant and God informed us that it was coming: Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, The blood of animals couldn't take away sin, they were a sign to point to The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world: Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. 1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. It started when Jesus said, "It is finished."

My neighbor up the street just got a bunch of goats and put them in her back yard, maybe she'll let me have one for tonight.

Sorry I dropped out for a few days, I had an extremely difficult weekend. The result is that someone dear to me was admitted to a mental institution, please pray for me and mine. This is a definate spiritual battle. Aaaawww, aint that sweet?? normally I would, sometimes it's hard to get the humor in print on the screen, glad we are back on the same page. That would be reasonable to me if that is what you or someone else chose to do, but for myself, if I interpreted it that way it would be a false humility of guilt of pleasing someone other than God. I honestly do not believe that God requires me to observe Saturday anymore than He would require me to sacrifice animals. I do sincerely believe that instead of requiring me to observe Saturday, He requires me to abide in Him every moment of everyday. I know that when I was SDA I was very religious on Saturday, ie, not listening to secular radio, no tv, blah blah but the rest of the week I did whatever. Now, I get a bad conscience if I watch junk on tv--any day. Does that make any sense? I'm the same daily instead of once a week, it's much better for my relationship with Christ, if the Sabbath brings you closer to God than great, I'm all for it!

See, now we are reasoning together instead of attacking eachother. Let me say 1st, that I know there are alot of "christians" who want to just get by on grace, I'm not subscribed to that group. It is my sincere desire to please God. That being said; your first point: (and I wish I had so much time to devote to this because I really do feel that it is really important and so misunderstood by both camps, or I should say all three camps, the Sabbattarians, the Sunday whatevers and the everyday alikers. 1st point Morality has nothing to do with righteousness. A person could live a very moral life and land in hell. point 2 Where is that coming from? "Love God - love your neighbor" The commandment that encompasses the entire law--is not observed my murdering children. point 3 that's the extreme. I agree totally that many and grevious are the errors of the RCC and whoever wants to place anyone under a law of "sunday" worship---or Friday for that matter which will be the Muslim sabbath. I will be the first to scream that Sunday is not the Sabbath. I don't observe it any differently from any other day, I truly go to church 3 or 4 times a week and Monday night is just as holy as Sunday is to me. God is there on Mondays too. I'm not sure it's a problem until it causes some here to look down their nose and feel a superiority for their position. That was the problem with the Pharisees and it is still very evident in those that try to adhere to the law today. In the OT (Micah I think) God said the only thing He ever intended was for us to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him, we couldn't do any of that without the Holy Spirit and that is the purpose of the law, to point us to Christ who left us a Helper. My neck hurts, gotta go.

Do you read your own posts? You post on here in such a spirit of haughtiness and arrogance. So sure you are above the intelligence of anyone else. So sure you are right. Pride comes before a fall, buddy, maybe you should take a couple of minutes to read my testimony which you can link at the bottom of my signature. I was Seventh day Adventist for 27 years........Oh, just read it, it wont kill you.

OK, tyring to take it in the context that you present makes it even more confusing to me, because if we say that the Sabbath is important to God then it will be equally important not to leave our dwelling place from Fri sundown to Sat sundown, or not to build a fire or carry a burden or even really, go to church since that is not allowed in the law of the Sabbath. I see the days of the week and time in it's entirety being the creation of God, not anything that He lives in or by. A creation for man, not man made for it, because it was implemented later. As far as the "rest" goes I understand it to be complete peace and trust in Jesus. The physical resting of a day in the shadow becomes our Rest that promised to take our burdens and He would give us rest for our souls.....not our bodies. Looking at the topic in a physical light will not get the true meaning of it. I'm not saying, do what you want, need no bible, whatever sarcasm you are suggesting, I'm saying everyday should be as holy as the next and we should't differentiate in any of them.

Bible only (by the way, I'm a She) 2 Corinthians 3:1-5 1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, Romans 7:1-6 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Ephesians 2:14-22 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Galatians 3:19-29 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 4:8-11 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Yod, You can't make up your mind what you believe, can you?

Bible only (by the way, I'm a She 2 Corinthians 3:1-5 1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, Romans 7:1-6 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Ephesians 2:14-22 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Galatians 3:19-29 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 4:8-11 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

I'd rather my family save 10,000 and cremate me than waste all that money and me rot in a hole in the ground. I think burial is worse than creamation. 30 years from now the result will be the same.

The Sabbath absolutely is not binding on christians, it was never intended for Gentiles and it is not relevant. We do not keep the law. The 10 commandments are not going to make us love our neighbor, only refrain from certain actions. They will not keep us from lusting, only from the act of adultery, they deal with the OUTWARD appearance, not the heart. Their is a new law written than the law on stone, it is in our heart, IF we are His. Our Sabbath is Today--capitalized in Hebrews 4. Eternal and always, in Jesus.

I know the answer, if you care to study a little: When God created the heavens and the earth He rested on the 7th day...........The 1st through 6th days of creation end with "and the evening and the sun were the 1st, 2nd and so on day, but the 7th has no such ending because it was intended to be a permanent state of rest. The rest ended when sin ended it. The 4th commandment is a reminder of that rest "Remember" points Israel back to a specific time and "to" points them forward to an action. The Sabbath was a command given specifically to Israel. There is no biblical record whatsoever of anybody keeping the Sabbath prior to Exodus 16 (Neh. 9:13-14). Even after they received the full-blown Sabbath command (Ex. 20:8-11), Israel who often condemned the sins of her pagan neighbors, never criticized their violation of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was part of God

You are assuming things because of what you have been taught. Christians do not "keep" Sunday. Some heretics out there might, but it is not the mainstream belief that Sunday is a Sabbath. I was praying about a church to join when I moved here and the first time I heard my pastor preach he said, "Sunday is not the Sabbath" The Sabbath is the Rest that we have in Jesus." I joined that day. Don't you see that the sign of the Sabbath pointed to the fulfillent of Jesus being our Rest. God does not live in time, He created it. There is not time apart from this universe that we know. "The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath" because it wasn't there existing in some eternal state. There was a purpose of it---to point to Christ. Israel hasn't received Christ and therefore is still under the law, even though it can't save them. The bible says where there is a change in the priesthood, there must be a change in the law. Fulfilled means complete, Jesus fulfilled the law and it is done. If you try to keep one part of it be legalism, you are required to keep the whole thing without fault. Are you prepared to do that?

I actually go to church Monday Wednesday and Sunday, many Fridays and Saturdays and I used to go Tuesday mornings before I worked days. My church is open everyday. How many SDA churches are open more than 3 hours a week? Most don't even have "vespers" anymore because no one will show up and Wednesday night? Forget that. That is what legalism does, the bare minimum required by the law.

I know where you are. I was there long ago and wasn't quite as blunt as you, but the general thought of random acts of hate were always on my mind. It does seem random, and unfair, and like there is no purpose, unless you search into the picture that is bigger than the one you can see. Problem is, God gave US this world. He gave Adam dominion over it. Why do you think we pray? If God already knows what we need before we ask? It's because we have dominion over this earth and He doesn't intervene unless we ask. That is why things happen that happen. It is our fault, not God's. You may be mad at God, so tell Him about it. He is quite big enough to handle whatever you throw at Him, but don't assume that you know how He feels, He loves you no matter what you think of Him and He can renew your mind. You have got to cast those negative thoughts out, they are demonic spirits that want to depress you and take you out. Blessings and prayers.

cardcaptor, You might want to lay the deck down and read your bible.

Judgement of works for the believer and rewardss for those that stand through the fire. It's a good thing! One of my favorite preachers, Perry Stone, said that someone in his family, grandmother I think, had a dream where all the believers were at the judgement and each had books of deeds. He said one man came up with lots and lots of books, Jesus put them on the altar and touched them with a scepter and they burned, when the fire was out they had burned up. Jesus told him to go to his reward. Then a little lady came up with only one small book, Jesus put it on the altar and when the fire was out there were beautiful stones and He took them and made a crown out of them and handed it to her. At the end, those with crowns laid them before Jesus, those without, just didn't have anything to give. I know it was just a dream, but it fits with the Bible account of the judgement. The bible says some will make it, as through the fire and all of our deeds will be tested through the fire. God forgives the believers sins, and forgets them, but He rewards us according to our deeds that were of a pure heart. He says in every house there are vessels of honor and of dishonor. The wicked will receive a different judgement.

Let me tell you what. Jesus saved me in 2001 and He is more real today than ever. His provision for me is astounding, just last week I paid tithe I didn't have, not because it is a NT requirement, but because I love to, and a few days later I went to pay a bill I owed and it was supposed to be for 200.00 but the clerk told me I only owed 99. Few weeks ago, I needed my car fixed, it was going to be 105.00 and, thank You Jesus, an extra 105.00 showed up in my checking account, when I called, I was told it was a bank error corrected from a few months ago. I could go on and on...........I'm no super christian, and I could be doing a lot more for the kingdom I'm sure, I sometimes feel like I will never get "there", wherever "there" is, but I know, that I know, that I know Jesus has saved me and He has said in His word that my heart is deceitfully wicked, He considers that I am dust, there is none righteous, not even me, but His sacrifice ALONE covers me. I will never be good enough to get to heaven, that work was performed by Him 2000 years ago. There is a great danger in believing there is something to do in keeping your salvation. Enough debate, blessings to you! Sabra

Guess it worked for David. After about a year he asked for God to restore the joy of his salvation, not his salvation. Oh, he had plenty of consequences, lost his child, his health, couldn't build the temple.....miserable existance, but God said he was a man after His own heart. The mercy of God is beyond some of your understanding. There is not one thing good enough you can do to be saved. Your best is as filthy rags, so how then can you place the fate of salvation on yourself? Whosoever shall call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved. No one can snatch you back out.

Judas called Jesus teacher, he never called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did. So that gives reference to how he felt about Jesus. Also, he was in charge of the treasury and stole from it, even pretended to be concerned when Mary "wasted" all that perfume. He was just concerned for himself. He was never saved, his fruit didn't show it and Jesus called him the son of perdidition. Bet that was a big surprise to the other 11, but not to God.

Butero, You are mnisunderstanding my point. Absolutely I agree that a person can not live like hell and trample the blood of Jesus underfoot and go to heaven. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, denying the truth, and rejecting it. OK, in the case of Judas, again. Do you think God ever considered him saved?

Butero, First, I'm understanding that the Book of Life is a record of every person born, according to Ps. 69:28: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and not be written with the righteous." Looks like a record book of birth certificates. and, I only believe what I believe because of my own study into the subject. I was always taught as a child that we don't even know if we are saved or not until we make it. Regarding the Prodigal Son. I personally believe that the younger son represents the Gentile and the older son, Israel, but that is really getting off topic. Still, in the allknowing Father's eyes, He sees that the son comes to repentance down the road and considers him a son from eternity past. That presents a lot of problems with scripture. Jesus taught that believers "will never perish" (John 10:28), "shall not come into judgment" (John 5:24), and "have [already] passed from death into life" (John 5:24). Paul told the believers at Rome that "neither death nor life...nor things present nor things to come...shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord;" (Rom 8:38-39). To the believers at Ephesus he wrote, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph 2:8-9). And to the believers at Thessalonica he said that "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him" (1 Thess 5:10). Consider Lot, he sure lived a sinful life and the bible calls him righteous. God spared his life even though he was hardly living a clean life. David? Adulterer, murderer.......when he finally repented he prayed that God would restore the joy of his salvation, not his salvation, because a believer will be miserable living apart from God. If we are dependent on dying without a single sin on our record, we are doomed! Who would be saved? No, Christ died for the sin of the world. The whole world wont accept his sacrifice, but through Him we are seen as the righteousness of God, because it isn't determined by a timeline we are one or the other. OK, say you are watching a movie you've seen before with someone who hasn't seen it. There are two characters running a race, one will win and the other will lose, you already know the outcome. Do you call the ultimate winner "the winner" of the two? Of course you do, because, even though they haven't won yet in the person's eyes who is watching it for the first time, you already know the end, so no matter what happens in the next two hours, that person is going to win, there is no changing it. Can a "church" person curse God and the Holy Spirit and go to hell? Of course, but God never saw them as saved.