McChurch

[tsth]

Just a thought. My sister-in-law is a member of a church that I would describe as very legalistic and condemning. She and her kids repeatedly came up to my husband and told him that we were all going to Hell because we were Catholics. They kept attacking him at the point of faith that he was. So much so that he mocked Born Again Christianity and they put stumbling blocks in his path by their condemning words. At that time I did not know Christ at all and that added fuel to the fodder of my hating of God.

I now do believe in God. I have read the Bible through several times, and actually came to Christ after my second reading of the Word of God and the wonderful pastor who for two years spoke to me of God's love and did not point to condemnation. The Holy Spirit is what convicted me of sin, this pastor just gave loving guidance and showed me in the Word how much God loved me.

Had I only met my sister-in-law, I doubt seriously I would have come to God. As far as the Mc Churches. You are right, the word is meatier than that, but if those McChurches pull people in and get a Bible in their hands, would not the Holy Spirit be powerful enough to get them to crack the book open.

I am still struggling with faith issues, still have major doubts, and questions, but at least I have the Word to study now.

As for my husband, once I got saved, I asked my pastor what do I do? He told me to not speak, but show by example of my life how God has changed me. If I learned anything that was edifying I shared it with him, not preaching, just sharing. I often talked about the Bible study lessons I was learning, like submission to one's spouse, etc. He is now attending the Bible study and insisting that when our children are off from school they attend as well. He still is Catholic and I still attend mass with him, although my heart is with the Bible based church that I love so much, but I have to believe that the Word of God will do its work in him.

In my unsaved state, if I had walked into a church that upheld self-righteousness as the mode, not love, I would have walked out. I am glad God directed me to where I am now. And maybe, since God can use all for good, the McChurches do have a place somewhere.

Now I am still rather new to Christ, and cannot pretend to have the whole picture, and there may be much that I am missing, but I suspect that love can do more than condemning behavior. And please know, this pastor that I met did not pull punches either, he used the Word, and showed me where I was sinning, but so gently that I was able to listen.

Heather

Dear Heather,

I understand what you are saying, and how that offended you and your husband. I cannot say how your sister approached you on this matter, but it doesn't sound like the Truth in love? However, it still doesn't dismiss the fact that many preachers and churches are preaching falsely regarding what God says about rebellion and a people who are too proud to receive Him. The article about McChurch in essence is speaking of the same church that Jeremiah 5 and 6 examines:

Jeremiah 6:13 "Because from the least of them even to the greatest of them, Everyone is given to covetousness; And from the prophet even to the priest, Everyone deals falsely. 14 They have also healed the hurt of My people slightly, Saying, 'Peace, peace!' When there is no peace. 15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! They were not at all ashamed; Nor did they know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; At the time I punish them, They shall be cast down," says the Lord. 16 Thus says the Lord: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.' 17 Also, I set watchmen over you, saying, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But they said, 'We will not listen.'

Many times what we are offended by, may be the very sound of that trumpet. Will we listen is the question? As badly as we want to hear pleasant things, many times the truth hurts. It is what we do with it, that reveals the heart of the matter.

Jeremiah 5:30 "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land: 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Isaiah 30:8 Now go, write it before them on a tablet, And note it on a scroll, That it may be for time to come, Forever and ever: 9 That this is a rebellious people, Lying children, Children who will not hear the law of the Lord; 10 Who say to the seers, "Do not see," And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things; Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits. 11 Get out of the way, Turn aside from the path, Cause the Holy One of Israel To cease from before us." 12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise this word, And trust in oppression and perversity, And rely on them, ...................

15 For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,

19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; You shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; When He hears it, He will answer you.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[wondering04]

Suzanne I do agree with you and see your point. I guess that sometimes I feel that any opportunity to get even a watered down version of the Word of God into someone is good. There are so many groups and people who are anti-Christian that I guess I have a challenge seeing the church judge others as to the quality of the work that they do. But I am still new and may be seeing things wrong.

Funny you should mention Jeremiah, that is the book I am studying now, and he was a very courageous prophet. 42 (44?) years of preaching the truth and not being believed. That is tough.

I know that there are churches and people who preach a feel-good religion that ignores parts of the Bible and pick and chooses what parts to put in effect. I know that that is wrong and in error. I guess, I just have a heart and concern that if a "McChurch" can reach someone and hold them until the Word can do its work, that is better than the person not even hearing about Christ at all.

The church I go to is a Bible-based church studying the word chapter by chapter, verse by verse. My pastor does preach the truth tempered with love.

There just seems to be such a trend among churches and denominations about who seems to have the "real" truth and who is in error. I suspect each church and denomination has a handle on some aspect of truth and has some human based rules and regulations as well. I almost can't wait to see church as Jesus conceived it when the last days comes. For me, I guess the most important thing is working on my relationship with Christ, and learning more to trust Him. Not an easy task for me. I sometimes wonder if God isn't shaking His head and wondering what He got Himself into when He got me reading the Bible.

Heather

[tsth]

Dear Heather,

I can really hear your longing for the Lord and desire for His Truth. I am curious, what was it you heard from the Word at the beginning? What was it that got your attention? Had you been to other churches beforehand? Why was this one different for you?

There are so many groups and people who are anti-Christian that I guess I have a challenge seeing the church judge others as to the quality of the work that they do. But I am still new and may be seeing things wrong.

Please don't misunderstand Heather, no one is speaking of judging another's work, but whether or not the leaders are leading in the Truth, rather than falsehoods.

Many times, people only want to hear what is "easy" to hear, and much like children wanting to eat only sweets, it can be extremely damaging to the body.

The spiritual body needs GOOD FOOD! That food is the Truth from the Word, and not just parts of it, but the whole Truth. And then as believers, we cannot be angered by someone who is being obedient, because we are convicted in heart by our personal sacrifice. Take a look at Cain and Abel in this message:

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. 13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother F8 abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

Many times it is when our hearts condemn us, that we need to stop and consider "why?" When our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in our hearts. It is being humble enough to admit, why we are offended by someone else's words to us? Is it because they are true? That is what the essence of the story of Cain and Abel was. One was true in heart, one was convicted in heart.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[wondering04]

Dear Suzanne, Today in Bible study we were talking about the bad shepherds in Zephaniah 11. I do see your point, but I guess I am also thinking of those who first walk into a church. To hit them with too much legalism at first may serve to drive them away. And yet, some would respond to such a message. I see that Jesus usually met the people were they were and then moved them to his POV, like he did with the Woman at the Well. I guess I just see that the MC Chruches could have some value, but I shudder to think that people might stay there and not move on to meatier teachings.

You asked what hit me from the Bible. I will share a bit.

At the age of 8 I gave up on God, and spent 40 years running from Him and deliberately doing what would have been displeasing to Him. About 15 years ago with the birth of my first son my husband insisted we start attending Mass, and I went bitterly, arms crossed across my chest, very angry at God and getting absolutely nothing from the service. Around five years ago I decided to give God one last chance and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. At that time what caught my eye was God hardening various people's hearts and the punishments he brought down, the Gospel made little impression on me. A friend suggested the Bible study that I still go to and I went, still raging at God. They were studying the book of Romans at the time. Romans is a very tough book when you are furious at God. I occasionally was able to attend a service at this church and I would almost spit if someone suggested God might love me. Something (probably the Holy Spirit) kept me coming back to the Bible study and after about a year I finally took the courage to speak in counselling with the pastor. It took two years before I would dare say the sinner's prayer. We had a lot of stuff to sort out - he kept trying to get me to say the prayer from day one, but I couldn't. But after awhile I began to believe the promises of the New Testament.

Regarding the hardening of hearts, Pastor Don pointed out that at first pharoah hardened his own heart, and later on, God cooperated with the will of pharoah to continue harding the heart.

I am still dealing with a lot of issues and questions, but my rage and anger at God has eased. At one point I apologized to God for the rage and the distinct thought came to me that God did not mind at the time because at least I was raging AT God, not ignoring Him. It was a dialogue, even though it was not a great one.

I still sort of feel that I pray AT God, not to God. I suppose that will change over time.

I am kind of torn, regarding asking God things, perhaps salvation is the best one can expect, and there is no greater gift. Perhaps we are not to ask for other things. My pastor says that we have the right to go to God with our concerns and needs, but I am not certain I really want to call attention to myself from God.

Abba father is a very difficult concept for me, I have to believe it is true because it is the Word, but I do not act on this belief. Some of the Psalms give me pause as does the book of Job, I often wonder how a God who could stop time, part the Red Sea, Part the Jordan River, knock down the enemy with hailstones and not touch the Israelites, raise the dead, chose not to protect me, or others in similar situations. Supposedly according to some Psalms he knew my end from my beginning, knows the number of hairs on my head, formed me in the womb and pretty much planned out my life. Wish he had planned a more pleasant life for me, not the abuse I received. If He abondoned me as a child, how can I trust that He won't abandon me now. And maybe his idea of not abandoning me is salvation, and that is all that one can expect. I don't think I am saying this clearly, but there are still many difficult questions that I am searching out.

I hope this gives you some idea of the sort of things that caught my eye.

Heather

[His son]

God tells us to read, and meditate in His Word all the time, and that He sent The Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth. That is God's way for us to establish our personal relationship with Him, and that is what it is all about. We are His Children, He is our Father, and He wants us to spend all our time with Him.

Where man got off track is misunderstanding this relationship, and he followed satans advice that we could be as God, and know all things by our own efforts, and using our own methods. Most of our churches follow this worldly system, and set up schools to teach others how to find out all about God by their own efforts, and of course using their system.

The training of the Apostles, and disciples by Jesus is a demonstration to us of how God would have us learn. They spent all their time with Jesus, listening, watching, doing when He told them to. And by their writtings in The Scriptures we can see that they knew a lot more about Jesus than all the religious leaders of their day who had all The Scriptures, and all the written information about His birth, and His coming. They knew all about Him, because everything He was to do while here was written in their Scriptures. Because they knew all about Him, they couldn't recognize Him when He got here, because they just knew that God would send Him directly to them first for their approval, because after all they were the spiritual leaders, and the only ones who had all The Scriptures etc. dealing with these issues. This of course is satans only way to take someone away from God, and it is the same method he still uses today, and is why we have so many denominations, doctrines, and controversies in the "church".

The good news is that there are man who have come to the realization that is is all about Jesus, and a personal relationship with Him according to each individuals own unigue personality, and Character, and they have learned that God's method of teaching His children is to give them elders who will lead them to those Scriptures that they need to study on their own, and will lead them into leaning only on The Holy Spirit to interpret, and show them how to apply those Scriptures to their personal issues. They don't try to eat, and digest their food for them. They are not to interpret it to them. They are to encourage them to stay in those Scriptures until They hear from The Holy Spirit. Like the story of the judge, and the widow who would not be denied. God wants to know that we seriously trust Him. One of the best teaching tools that the elders have is their personal testimony of how, and which Scriptures they have lived out in their lives. When we get to the place where this is being practiced in our Churches, then we will see that it is exactly the way God would have us evangelize the unsaved. God wants all saved, and He has created us with freewills to choose who we will serve in This pilgrimage, and when we choose Him, He will be right there in all His power to keep us on that righteous path, and leading many who He has brought into our lives in maintaing that pilgrimage.

[wondering04]

That is an interesting point His Son. But I can also see the wisdom in fellowshipping with others and sharing knowledge and insights. I think that there would be a danger in just trusting our own perception of what the Holy Spirit is saying. It might be a situation where you believe that it is the Holy Spirit but it is your own understanding and maybe in error.

I do see the value in studying the Word yourself and learning straight from the Bible, but good teachers and guides can help to open up your understanding.

Heather

[mobile21]

That McThing is so true.

There are ppl who say "I'm saved" and they truly believe they can choose salvation with a perfect single expression of free will like the angels do.

We cannot do that because we humans need a constant option for salvation and that's an option of a lifetime.