Why Choose Christianity?

[nebula]

All right, I know I've been stumbling through my explanation of this, but here is what I've been trying to say with regards to works:

I understand your point, and that's what we are already discussing.

Does Allah declare you righteous before you you live out righteousness?

[Guest shiloh357]

It was for cure, and believing in Jesus is also a cure, but that doesn't mean that his crucifixion is the cure. Jesus was sent from God and people must believe in him to live. Jesus was lifted up to Heaven and we must believe in him to live, but that doesn't mean that his crucifixion is the cure for our sins.

Actually, the Bible teaches that Jesus' crucifixion is the cure for sin. You have the blood of Jesus and the death of Jesus working in cooperation.

The power of His blood is for the forgiveness of the sins we commit. The death of Jesus on the cross delivers from the curse and bondage of sin into which all men born by default.

That is what makes Christianity unique. Jesus is not merely the founder of a religion. He is not just another member of the pantheon of good reliigious leaders. Jesus offers Himself as personification and the source for eternal life and the Savior for all mankind. He declares Himself to be the ONLY Way to YHVH (John 14:6). Salvation is not a status or reward. Salvation is a person. It is Jesus, Himself. All other religions require works as a means for eternal life, and YHVH does not. Rather it is by grace through faith that one gains eternal life and this was true in both the Old and New Testaments.

YHVH is holy and just in an absolute way and mankind cannot, under his own strength, work hard enough to gain perfection to the degree that YHVH is satisfied. YHVH is not interested in people trying to perform well enough for Him. They cannot possibly do that, anyway. YHVH's program is about restoring man unto Himself. It is not about trying to commit great acts of self-sacrifice or to do exploits for Him. It is about simply responding to His offer of grace and reconnecting spiritually with Him. It is about restoring the fellowship lost in the Garden of Eden.

That is what religions in this world miss. Religion is about performance-based acceptance; YHVH is about grace-based acceptance. He accepts what Jesus did on the cross as payment in full for sin and He offers us His grace on that basis. YHVH's justice against sin has been fully satisified and YHVH has reconciled man to Himself. YHVH is at peace with man where His justice is concerned. It is man's responsibility to respond to that offer of grace through faith.

[nebula]

There are a couple things you are failing to consider.

1. You've never seen men dying on a cross. None of the ones you have mentioned had to face a comparable death.

Actually there was a disciple of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who was crucified and he wasn't concerned, when he knew that he will be crucified he said a poem telling he is not concerned as long as this will be for the sake of Allah.

Does it record the time between writing the poem and the crucifixion? When facing death, a person can feel calm at one time, and feel terror at another, or vice versa.

Now, if the agony Jesus went through was a shame and weakness, why was it written about by those who wanted to exalt Him?

Could it be that they see something that you do not?

For His followers see glory, not shame.

If you will note, when Jesus is done praying, He is stronger than ever.

2. When trying to convince a Christian that His agony evidenced lack of faith and weakness, you do no understand that we know He was also facing spiritual agony, not just physical. I may not convince you of this, but you will never convince a Christian out of this.

What do you mean by a spiritual agony? I mean through scriptures and what Jesus said?

Mark 14:36 - And He was saying, "Abba ! Father ! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

Are you familiar with why Jesus called it, "This cup"?

Your Allah has to entice with rewards and punishments.

My YHWH works on the heart to weed out those things that caused sin to lay a hold on us in the first place.

Your answer indicates that you don't want to understand what I said. I never negated the work on heart and kept on insisting that it is the main thing, but it is not the only thing, refer to what I said on the bird example, love is the head of the bird, if the bird is beheaded, it will die.

But does your Allah work in your heart? Or do you have to do that yourself? Does He only entice, or does he walk with you?

What do you believe the man issue of Christianity to be?

The main belief and reason Christians adopt Christianity for which is that Jesus died for our sins, you quote Isaiah 53 as the main OT evidence for it although Jesus didn't recognize it to be talking about that issue when he talked and quoted OT verses about much more trivial issues and quoted.

Thank-you for seeing past my typo. Oops!

But I asked you what you believe the main issue issue of Christianity to be, not what you believe we believe. I know what we believe. I want to know what you believe it to be.

[A Muslim]

For example, how did a Samaritan mold the Golden Calf when the Samaritans did not exist until after the Northern Kingdom of Israel fell to the Assyrians?

Did the Quran say that Al Samiri is from Samaria? Actually it didn't, and this is not what the Prophet Muhammad's disciples and early interpreters understand from the Quran. Al Samiri was from Samurraa in Iraq, he was a calf worshipper and he tempted Israel to worship the calf.

Interesting. Things must have gotten mixed up in being translated into English, because even Muslims have said "Samaritan."

OK, I am trying to find information on "Samurraa", and the closest match I can find is "Samarra," and that city wasn't built until much later as well. What information do you have on the existence of this place back then?

Yes, it's Samarra, I was just copying the Arabic pronunciation as I didn't know the English one, actually the city is ancient, what you mean by building during the Abbasid Caliphate this was a rebuilding, you can see the history of the city here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra

You haven't mentioned love before, only external deeds.

And you certainly haven't talked about how a heart is transformed. People can be very good at "going through the motions" but those actions not changing the thoughts and intents of the person

Haven't I really mentioned it? I have been confirming it. See my message 24, message 35, my example of the bird.I have been confirming on saying that without love nothing can be achieved, but still we need other incentives. You haven't answered my question, if rewards are not important, neither fear is, why will God give rewards to the righteous and punish those who reject him?

You're welcome!

Your English is spoken well. But let me know if there are any other words or phrases you are not familiar with in context.

Thanks, if I have any question about any word or phrase I will ask.

Actually, I never "got rid of some sins". I have overcome, but I cannot credit this to myself. My ability to save myself is too weak.

I understand what you mean and agree with the concept, it's not man's effort, but God's blessing although we are asked to make effort, but we shall refer it God only that He gave us this blessing.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, thus stated: I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him.

Not necessarily. Quite often those who self-motivated themselves out of temptation fall back into the sin when pressures pile on and their defenses and resistances are weakened.....

Actually if you have looked deeply at my last sentence you'd have understood what I meant, I said at the end that working for rewards or fear cannot be made without faith, otherwise there will be no interest for worship without faith, if the man is not deeply believing that there is Heaven or hell or that God is looking at him, he won't be motivated to do a good work or stop a sin. And all this doesn't come by the effort of man, but by God's blessing, and that's another meaning of the Hadith I gave above.

Before one can answer this question, one has to ask why Judas betrayed Jesus in the first place. There is speculation among some that Judas did not believe Jesus would actually get arrested, but that He would slip away from the guards the same way He slipped away from the crowds who tried to stone Him previously. Maybe perhaps he thought that by forcing Jesus into a confrontation with the Romans, this would push Him towards starting an uprise against the Romans. For this is what the people were looking for in Messiah - the Conquering King. Their hearts were hardened and eyes blinded and ears closed to the understanding and acceptance of Messiah as Suffering Servant.

"Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned," - this here is an indication that Judas did not believe Jesus would actually get arrested and taken away.

So when things did not go as he had planned, he felt agonized. He didn't "give" the money back, he threw it back - again an action of agony, trying to run from his sin, trying to run from himself. And so he ended his life, not being able to live with himself for what he had done.

There is no indication in this that he turned to God, that he asked God forgiveness or that he placed himself at the hands of God's mercy. He took his life into his own hands, not God's.

Well, but according to your speculation, he had a good intention although he did it through wrong means, and when he found that he was wrong, he remorsed, actually I see he gave the money back to the priests:

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4

[A Muslim]

There are a couple things you are failing to consider.

1. You've never seen men dying on a cross. None of the ones you have mentioned had to face a comparable death.

Actually there was a disciple of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who was crucified and he wasn't concerned, when he knew that he will be crucified he said a poem telling he is not concerned as long as this will be for the sake of Allah.

Does it record the time between writing the poem and the crucifixion? When facing death, a person can feel calm at one time, and feel terror at another, or vice versa.

Now, if the agony Jesus went through was a shame and weakness, why was it written about by those who wanted to exalt Him?

Could it be that they see something that you do not?

For His followers see glory, not shame.

If you will note, when Jesus is done praying, He is stronger than ever.

It doesn't record exact time, but it seems through the narration that it's about 3 or 4 days. But it doesn't record that he was terrified at all, it talks even about miracles occurred during his imprisonment before crucifixion. When he was crucified, one asked him:" Do you like that Muhammad is in your place while you are sitting with your family?" He said :'By Allah I never want to with the children my wife and enjoy the pleasures of the world survived, despite being the Messenger of calamity hit by a piece of thorns ...!"

As for your second question, they may have written so as they heard it. Actually the history of Christian creed is not clear and it seems it had been developed during the first 2 centuries.

Mark 14:36 - And He was saying, "Abba ! Father ! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

Are you familiar with why Jesus called it, "This cup"?

Actually I am not, could you please tell me what you mean?

But does your Allah work in your heart? Or do you have to do that yourself? Does He only entice, or does he walk with you?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, thus stated: I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him.

Thank-you for seeing past my typo. Oops!

But I asked you what you believe the main issue issue of Christianity to be, not what you believe we believe. I know what we believe. I want to know what you believe it to be.

Never mind. As for our belief of the message of Jesus, let Jesus (Peace be upon him) talk about it:

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 51"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (Holy Quran Surat Al Imran)

6.And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (Holy Quran, Surat Al Saff)

[A Muslim]

Actually, the Bible teaches that Jesus' crucifixion is the cure for sin. You have the blood of Jesus and the death of Jesus working in cooperation.

That's another concept I agree with. God needn't do all these tactics and humiliate Himself to show people that He will forgive them for something they are born with. That's against God's Mightiness and justice. We believe that the one who really believes in Allah as the Only God and doesn't associate any partners with Him, not to love anyone more than Him, not to fear anyone more than Him, have a real faith in Him that He is the Only God and that he is a poor human being, this man will be saved.

The power of His blood is for the forgiveness of the sins we commit. The death of Jesus on the cross delivers from the curse and bondage of sin into which all men born by default.

Actually this is a main difference between Islam and Christianity. We consider that people were born pure but are then polluted with sins through the surrounding environment and the effect of this environment on their action, otherwise, if we were born with such bondage to curse and sin, why shall God account us of something we have nothing to do with? This is against God's justice. I see Coptic Church saying that if a child died before being baptized he will not be saved. I am not sure if you adopt the same opinion or not, but it seems through your words that you do. In Islam, we believe that if a child died, he will be sent to Heaven because he was born pure not cursed.

That is what religions in this world miss. Religion is about performance-based acceptance; YHVH is about grace-based acceptance.

We never said that performance is first, of course faith is first, if someone made all good works without faith, they are nothing. But I see that what Christianity gave is not a grace, but a correction to a mistake, Yahweh created people cursed with sins and wanted to get rid of this curse so he sent Jesus to die and lift the curse. But it is not the fault of man to be born cursed and to be accounted for what Yahweh created him with.

[Guest shiloh357]

That's another concept I agree with. God needn't do all these tactics and humiliate Himself to show people that He will forgive them for something they are born with. That's against God's Mightiness and justice.

That is not true, where YHVH is concerned. YHVH's power is demonstrated in his mercy. YHVH's 's justice and might is seen in His ability to redeem sinful man without compromising His holiness in the process. Not only does it not contradict His mightiness and justice, it also reveals His mercy, grace and love for the people He created.

Actually this is a main difference between Islam and Christianity. We consider that people were born pure but are then polluted with sins through the surrounding environment and the effect of this environment on their action, otherwise, if we were born with such bondage to curse and sin, why shall God account us of something we have nothing to do with?

The Bible teaches the man was created in sinless perfection. YHVH is perfect in holiness and cannot create imperfection. Adam chose to disobey YHVH and as a result, man has inherited Adam's sinful nature. We are born in this condition, but YHVH has provided a remedy, a cure for it. The power of curse can be broken through trusting in Christ, because Jesus bore the full weight of that curse. Jesus was the only person to ever live without sin and He was the only person not born who did not inherit Adam's sinful nature. Jesus kept YHVH's laws perfectly and fulfilled the righteousness of them. Jesus bore the full weight of our sin and He redeemed us from the curse by becomeing a curse on our behalf. All of YHVH's wrath and hatred of sin, was hurled at Jesus on the cross and Jesus took it all and drank every bitter drop of that cup. He did it on our behalf, standing as our representative before God.

The failure of every other religion is in the notion that man is born basically good but corrupted later in life. This view is accompanied by the notion that man can improve himself, that by adhering to a set of rules or laws or religious ritual, he can improve his life, achieve perfection, or enlightenment or find favor with his god. The error in this view is two fold: Firstly, the sinful nature of man is born out immediately after birth. A child who is not taught values, is not disciplined even at the very early ages of life (2-5 years old) will grow into an animal. Even before a child can be "corrupted" he/she is selfish, violent, rebellious, obstinate. These are part of human nature that if not confronted in the formative years will cause a child to be just as rebellious as a young person, teen or even as an adult.

Secondly, this view is in error because it presumes that man has the ability to rid himself of evil to reform his behavior and change himself and in doing so, make the world a better place. Man is taught to rely on his own strength, to look inside himself to find the answer. The problem comes from us. So the answer cannot come from us. The problem cannot answer its self. The problem comes from us, so the answer must lie somewhere outside of us, behyond our reach and there is nothing we can do, no amount of effort, no good works (regardless of how glorious and grandiose they appear in our own eyes) will bring us any closer to the answer. Religion is a practive in futility. It spins it wheels in the mud striving after that ever elusive answer.

That is where YHVH comes in. He loves man so much that He provided man with the remedy to the problem. All it takes is for man to realize the root problem of sin that is inherent in his nature, and repent and turn to YHVH for salvation. Jesus is the remedy. His shed blood AND His death on the cross provide a double cure for the sin problem both in terms of what we do and what we are. His blood cleanses and forgives us for what we have done. His death delivers us from what we are. Works always follow nature. You are not a sinner because you sin. Rather it is your sins that reveal your nature as a sinner. Sin always begins in the heart of man, long before he commits the act physically. If you tell a dirty joke, it reveals what was already in your heart. The dirty joke did not corrupt you. It reveals the corruption that was already there, which prompted you to tell the joke.

This is against God's justice.

YHVH's justice is only one aspect of His nature that is in play, here. His justice works in cooperation with His mercy. In the Scripture, He is both just and merciful. He is just in that He was able to judge sin and at the same time redeem mankind from the bondage of sin.

I see Coptic Church saying that if a child died before being baptized he will not be saved. I am not sure if you adopt the same opinion or not, but it seems through your words that you do.

No, we do not generally believe that, though I would not rule it out in some denominations.

In Islam, we believe that if a child died, he will be sent to Heaven because he was born pure not cursed.

No, most like myself believe that a child his held in a state of innocence (not sinlessness) until they are able to understand and make a choice. If they die before that time, we believe they are taken to heaven.

But I see that what Christianity gave is not a grace, but a correction to a mistake, Yahweh created people cursed with sins and wanted to get rid of this curse so he sent Jesus to die and lift the curse. But it is not the fault of man to be born cursed and to be accounted for what Yahweh created him with.

That is not correct. YHVH created the world and all that is in it, including man in a state of sinless perfection. God did not make a mistake and create man sinful Adam rebelled and we have inherited His sinful nature. One day sin will be eradicated and the New Jerusalem will descend out of Heaven and Jesus will rulte the world from Jerusalem forever. YHVH will finally dwell forever with man and man will enjoy a state of sinless perfection. Only those who receive Christ will inherit this. Those who choose Allah, Buddha, or some other god or religious leader will spend eternity in hell in never-ending torment and they will bear the full weight of the curse of sin.

[A Muslim]

That's another concept I agree with. God needn't do all these tactics and humiliate Himself to show people that He will forgive them for something they are born with. That's against God's Mightiness and justice.

That is not true, where YHVH is concerned. YHVH's power is demonstrated in his mercy. YHVH's 's justice and might is seen in His ability to redeem sinful man without compromising His holiness in the process. Not only does it not contradict His mightiness and justice, it also reveals His mercy, grace and love for the people He created.

What does this has to do with God's Holiness? The need for an atonement?

So why did Jesus forgive the adulterer woman which was before salvation? Isn't this against God's Holiness?

The Bible teaches the man was created in sinless perfection. YHVH is perfect in holiness and cannot create imperfection. Adam chose to disobey YHVH and as a result, man has inherited Adam's sinful nature. We are born in this condition, but YHVH has provided a remedy, a cure for it.

Which is against God's Justice as well. If Adam sinned, what shall I have to do with that? Each one is responsible for his acts.

19

[Guest shiloh357]

What does this has to do with God's Holiness? The need for an atonement?

The need for atonement is reflected in YHVH's love for us. If YHVH were nothing but holy, if that were the only attribute He possessed, there would be non atonement, no redemption. YHVH would simpy have destroyed Adam and Eve on the spot. YHVH, has multiple attributes that work in cooperation. What YHVH does, is judge sin while redeeming man. He can maintain His holiness and still operate in love and forgiveness.

So why did Jesus forgive the adulterer woman which was before salvation? Isn't this against God's Holiness?

Not for YHVH. His holiness and mercy operate in cooperation. One is not against the other.

Which is against God's Justice as well. If Adam sinned, what shall I have to do with that? Each one is responsible for his acts.

19 Yet you ask, Why does the son not share the guilt of his father? Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.(Ezekiel 18)

That is where you are mistaken. This is not about sharing guilt. It is about sharing a sinful nature. The Bible does not teach that we are all guilty for Adam sin. It teaches that we inherited His sin nature. We did not inherit His guilt.

Actually this is not a sinful nature, but nature of ignorance, he still doesn't understand, but once he is grown up, he knows what is right from what is wrong, what is moral and what is immoral, all human beings agree on many moral issues whatever they believe, and there are many non believers are very good in treating people, so it is something that refers to the person himself.

That is also wrong. Man if left to himself, will gravitate towad selfishness. Children who are not disciplined will bite, kick, bully other children, act selfish, is disrespectful to elders, rebels against authority and so forth. The seed of rebellion is sown in the heart of man from birth. It is manifest in a person who recognizes no moral restrictions. Left to Himself man is basically evil. With no training, his nature gravitates in that direction. It may be from ignorance or it may not be. There are many evil people in the world who know they are evil and enjoy it. They enjoy shedding blood of innocents and som even do it in the name of religion. It is the nature of man to be evil from birth.

So what about those before Jesus? Why did not they have the chance saved as you had? Isn't it against God's Justice?

Of course, they had opportunities. YHVH deals with man on the basis of grace through faith even in the OT. Their faith looked ahead to the final sacrifice of Christ, and our faith looks back at the same sacrifice.

Well, the Bible tells that Zechariah and John the Baptist didn't commit a sin as well.

No, it doesn't. Besides, even IF a person could live without committing a sin, they are still a sinner before YHVH.

If someone has the sinful nature when he grows up, another one doesn't have it even if he wasn't taught faith. So actually I don't see your point stands.

That is because your mind is darkened and you do not know the truth. You can't see the truth because you worship a lie. The default, evil nature of man is observable every day. The world is getting worse, not better and it is because mankind in is in a downward spiral and the world is in a state of decay and both are reflective of each other.

The only answer is is Jesus.

[Guest]

That's another concept I agree with. God needn't do all these tactics and humiliate Himself to show people that He will forgive them for something they are born with. That's against God's Mightiness and justice.

That is not true, where YHVH is concerned. YHVH's power is demonstrated in his mercy. YHVH's 's justice and might is seen in His ability to redeem sinful man without compromising His holiness in the process. Not only does it not contradict His mightiness and justice, it also reveals His mercy, grace and love for the people He created.

What does this has to do with God's Holiness? The need for an atonement?

So why did Jesus forgive the adulterer woman which was before salvation? Isn't this against God's Holiness?

Dear One You Don't Know God

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

Or You Would Not Blaspheme Against Him

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:26-28