jesusson Posted September 13, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 436 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/08/1971 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Tithing is a O.T Law I am going to repeat it again Romans 3:27 - Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 9:32 - Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tjw Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Hi Jesusson, I think you misunderstood, or did not read my posting(s). By the way "tithe" means "tenth". Where do you come up with 20%? But really, I have no clue of what you're saying. Are you disagreeing with me in some way? tjw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusson Posted September 13, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 436 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/08/1971 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Two kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary). The issue has been greatly confused, however, by some who misunderstand the nature of the Old Testament tithes. Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel. Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax, as was a second annual tithe required by God to fund a national festival (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Smaller taxes were also imposed on the people by the law (Leviticus 19:9-10; Exodus 23:10-11). So the total giving required of the Israelites was not 10 percent, but well over 20 percent. All that money was used to operate the nation. All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified. New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government--a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel. The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7: "Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusson Posted September 13, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 436 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/08/1971 Share Posted September 13, 2002 I hope this answers your question. Please take time and go through the scriptures I provided. And remember that I can change your mind on this topic. Just give it to God and pray on it and he will guide you on this issue. Even at least if I can proof my pint and if the scripture can proof it points at least please do it right. Don't just do half of it if you are going to keep the law do it right. Your brother in Christ A.S Lord Bless :thumb: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tjw Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Hey Jesusson, Regarding the 2 tithes - How can one give of the firstfruits and the firstborn 2 times? tjw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusson Posted September 13, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 436 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/08/1971 Share Posted September 13, 2002 TJW: Tell you truth I am so tired of this topic that you will not believe me! :sleeping: I already have said all that God has opened for me, I am not trying to change Your view in tithing-only God can. If you really are seeking the truth the Truth will be opened for you regarding this. But if you want to debate Over it- well I am so tired I have gotten e-mails from maybe 4 people And tried to explain it to them with the word of God. You can call it tithing As long as do it from the heart and as long as you don't see you're self-righteous In front of God when you give you are in the right path. What I was trying to to do Is to tell people that we are not to give mandatory a 10% of everything. About 3 months ago I was @ church and the church needed some money for those Days (EXTRA) and I felt that I had to write a check for a very large amount. I had just closed a business deal and God had blessed me that week and I felt God Was leading me into writing that big check. Well if I was giving my tithes every Week (10%) I would of felt that there is no need to give a check in that amount. I have given you verses and prayers the rest of it is up to our Lord. May God richly Bless you in everything that is in His will. God Bless. A.S :thumb: :biggrin: :lightbulb: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tjw Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Hey Jesusson, Boy, have you got me in the wrong camp. But regardless, I suppose you have no answer to my question. tjw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuaestorRexRegis Posted September 14, 2002 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 184 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 14, 2002 WOW! I have just read this whole long - not boring - discussion (to some a frustrating argument), and I am concerned with jss' demands that tithing is O.T. only and does not apply to today. Instead, financial tithing (10% and more) is what is O.T. Please jss - don't get tight-lipped here - we need your input, too. The request for a new thread I believe is unwarranted at this time because by the responses I see, this issue has not yet received its due course. If you are obligated by God to give 10% of your income, then so be it - if it is a law to you from God, then do not disobey Him who works in you. Yet, if you are obligating anyone else to this same law because of your relationship with Him, then you have truly overstepped your bounds. If you are not obligated by God to give anything, I fear that you might not have as close a walk with Him as you might think. If you are obligated by God to give 100%, then the questions need to be answered: where are you giving the 100%? Are you giving to the electric company? Are you giving to the gas stations? Etc. Perhaps you should look at God's blessings. The beginning of the first fruits was to be from a harvest that they never planted (Leviticus 23:10) - - God gives first. The indications of what you give are based on how He supplies. Israel was not required to give of the first fruits until AFTER they entered the promised land. This can be seen in our lives as Christians, too... but I will wait for any further discussion(s) to proceed with that line of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusson Posted September 14, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 436 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/08/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2002 Is Tithing required by the New Testament? FREQUENTLY QUOTED VERSES Commonly quoted scriptures: Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Christ spoke these words during His ministry and this teaching was in harmony with the directives of the Old Covenant. The following verse explains the position of Christ in relation to the existing Old Covenant Law. Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, :5 to redeem those who were under the law, ... Christ planted the seeds of the New Testament while acting and speaking in harmony with the law of the Old Covenant. It is for this reason that He also commanded a cleansed leper to obey the law of Moses. Matt 8:3 ... And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. :4 See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them. The physical offering of animals does not apply under the New Testament, so why did Christ compel this compliance with the Law of Moses? For the same reason he compelled tithing in Matthew 23:23. The Law of Moses was still in force during the life of Christ. It would have been 'sin' for Christ at this time to have taught against the Law of Moses! In the Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 verses Christ was not teaching that tithing was required by the New Testament, but rather was just re-enforcing that this was a requirement under the Old Covenant! OTHER NEW TESTAMENT VERSES Looking for other tithing verses in the New Testament we do not find any requirement for Christians to tithe. A) A PHARISEE'S PRAYER Tithing is mentioned in the parable of the prayers of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, where the Pharisee states; Luke 18:12 'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' In this illustration we have the teaching that strict obedience to the law, and the self righteousness it can produce, amounts to less than the display of humility by a sinner seeking mercy. B) THE TITHING OF ABRAHAM The following verses discuss the example of Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek and how the Levites under the Old Covenant were to receive the tithes of the people. Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. :5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; :6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. :7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. :8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. :9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so as to speak, :1 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. This text and the subsequent commentary is discussing the identity of Melchizedek and the changing of the priesthood under the New Testament. The issue of tithing in the time of Abraham and in the Old Covenant is covered, but the question of tithing in the New Testament is not clarified. However, should the analogy of the transfer of authority to receive tithes be extended along the lines of the priesthood change, then this text would be suggesting we in the New Testament would be required to tithe directly to Christ (and not to any type of representative). EXAMPLE OF THE APOSTLES If we wish to see the New Testament position in respect to tithing the logical place to look is in the writings of the apostles. We do not find any specific commandment for the newly converted Christians to tithe so we have to consider verses which may suggest this teaching prevailed at that time. Acts 20:33 I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. :34 Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. :35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. 2Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. :9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what was lacking to me the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. 12:13 For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong! :15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved. 9:1 Now concerning the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you; :2 for I know your willingness, ... :5 ... I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your bountiful gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. :6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. :7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. :8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 8:12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have. :13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; :14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack - that there may be equality. 1Cor 9:11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? :12 If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ. :14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel. Gal 6:6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusson Posted September 14, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 436 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/08/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2002 You know go ahead and try to justify yourselves with the written law. I f you want to keep the Law go ahead give exact 10%. And I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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