Origin Science

[Believer112]

A couple of years ago science (origin science) was a major stumbling block for me in believing the literal interpretation of the bible. It's the same stumbling block that affects some of the non believers at my job. I started looking at the alternatives ID and creationism and found that there are arguments against the mainstream theory. If origins science can create doubt about the truthfulness of the word of God then it's of the devil.

There are spiritual forces Good and Evil moving in all areas of our lives. Origin science is satanic in that it goes against God's word. We have non believers and some Christians arguing with creationists (Bible believing Christians) over something unproven. If you manipulate the first book of the bible in your thinking, what other books have you manipulated? I believe satan used these antichrists to deceive the world.

Darwin's ideas, along with those of Adam Smith and Karl Marx, had a profound influence on 19th century thought. Perhaps the most radical claim of the theory of evolution through natural selection is that "elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent on each other in so complex a manner" evolved from the simplest forms of life by a few simple principles. This claim inspired some of Darwin's most ardent supportersand provoked the most profound opposition. The radicalism of natural selection, according to Stephen Jay Gould,^[53] lay in its power to "dethrone some of the deepest and most traditional comforts of Western thought". In particular, it challenged long-standing beliefs in such concepts as a special and exalted place for humans in the natural world and a benevolent creator whose intentions were reflected in nature's order and design.

In the words of the philosopher Daniel Dennett^[54], "Darwin's dangerous idea" of evolution by natural selection is a "universal acid" which cannot be kept restricted to any vessel or container, as it soon leaks out, working its way into ever wider surroundings. Thus, in the last decades the concept of natural selection has spread from evolutionary biology into virtually all disciplines, including evolutionary computation, quantum darwinism, evolutionary economics, evolutionary epistemology, evolutionary psychology and cosmological natural selection. This unlimited applicability has been called Universal Darwinism.

http://en.wikipedia....tural_selection

As stated by evolutionists:

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

"Evolution...must be gradual when it is being used to explain the coming into existence of complicated, apparently designed objects, like eyes. For if it is not gradual in these cases, it ceases to have any explanatory power at all. Without gradualness in these cases, we are back to miracle..." Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden

The basis for their claim: only intelligent design can directly produce complexity

You fight the fight for evolution yet there should be more in the fossil records. You have your beliefs over the bible and over something that hasn't been proven.

George Gaylord Simpson, long considered the dean of vertebrate paleontologists, says "There is...a systematic deficiency in the record of the history of life. It is thus possible to claim that such transitions are not recorded because they did not exist, that the changes were not by transition but by sudden leaps in evolution." Of course, there are no such things as "leaps" in macro-evolution. Only by the operation of intelligent design can you see a whole suite of new features appear together at once. (source required)

Clark (A.H.) says "Since we have not the slightest evidence, either among the living or the fossil animals, of any intergrading types following the major groups, it is a fair supposition that there never have been any such intergrading types." (source required)

Stephen Jay Gould, the co-founder of the theory of punctuated equilibrium "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at their tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." One wonders exactly why the inference is reasonable! Only the prior assumption of the naturalistic world-view would make such an inference reasonable...but that is not science, it is religion. (source required)

Steven Jay Gould points out in his book Wonderful Life (after admitting that he will simply dodge the question of how such complexity could form without leaving any trace) that the cambrian fossils contradict the prediction from macro-evolution in another way as well: the so-called cone of increasing diversity should actually be stood on its head. There is more fundamental diversity in body plans right there at the beginning than there is later. How to explain this by the theory of macro-evolution?

http://www.xenos.org...s/evolution.htm

More quotes on fossil records http://www.bibleprob.../objection.html

God created man in His own Image. What's so hard about believing that? Have faith!

[JohnD]

Never underestimate the religious fervor of humanity... even in the religion of atheism.

Religion is often times a label hung around the neck of Christianity. And unjustly so. For at its core are the anti-religious efforts of Almighty God to have a real relationship with his people and not a religion.

Religion is fraught with superstition, blind faith, fanaticism, and control freaks.

Sadly, there are some of these foisted upon the moniker of the followers of Christ... and the Bible warned against this very thing from the struggles of the disciples to be the greatest to the itching ears of the laity in the last days who do not tolerate sound doctrine...

But do not be surprised by the blind faith of those who hope to disprove God in bad theories and mafia-like strangleholds on science, education, and the media... they just don't want to be told that they are not God...

[JohnD]

I mean, we all go through the phases of faith where in the beginning we are just so in love with truth and so glad we found him and we want the whole world to join in this discovery and be saved from hell... then we butt heads with those who no matter what is said or done only want to oppose God. And if we do it for enough years one day it dawns on us to simply let them alone. Fight them in their efforts to take over the marketplace of ideas and government and the youths through education... but to not weary ourselves with trying to prove their religion wrong. Offer them the way of life and when they refuse... move on.

I know this sounds cynical as can be, but it affords us a peace of mind and an opportunity to witness to receptive hearts. I do not recall Jesus or the Apostles begging unbelievers year after year to see the light. If the Holy Spirit places someone on your heart, that's different. That's obeying a divine command. And most often it is someone loved. But there comes a point in time when it is a matter of allowing a satanic diversion or stall tactic to so entangle you that you are of little use or effect for the Kingdom.

Evolution (macro-evolution) is a fairytale for unbelievers.

Edited April 25, 2011 by JohnDB

[Guest]

There Is A Sad Sad Story I'm Told I'm Told

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22

About A Planet Where Death Is Proudly Proclaimed As A Very Good Thing

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

And Decay Is Worshiped As The Primeval Mother Of All Things Living And Of Their Feelings And Conduct

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 1:22-25

And Where It's Said Many Dying Creatures Will Claim "Nature Made Me To Do It"

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

While Never Seeming To Cease Their Rants Against The Light

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:9-13

~

There Is A Glad Glad Story I've Heard I've Heard

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13

About An Amazing Little Planet Tenderly Formed With Love And Filled Up With Wonderful Life

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18

And Where Death And Corruption And Misery Were Never In It's Creator's Plans

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

And The Glory Of God Was Hung On Displayed For All To See

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

And Where "He Is Risen" Rings Throughout The Lands

And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. Mark 16:6

And Death Will Soon

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55

Begone!

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:3-5

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Believe

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:7-8

And Be Blessed Beloved

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Love, Joe

[Byron A]

I think the problem is not in the Bible, but in our interpretation of the Bible. I have to agree with the ancient theologian Augustine on this one. According to Wikipedia:

Augustine took the view that the Biblical text should not be interpreted as properly literal, but rather as metaphorical, if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason. While each passage of Scripture has a literal sense, this "literal sense" does not always mean that the Scriptures are mere history; at times they are rather an extended metaphor. In The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, St. Augustine wrote:

It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

[Guest shiloh357]

I view the two Genesis accounts of Creation (Yes, there are TWO different accounts of creation in the first two chapters of Genesis) as metaphorical poetry.

You are mistaken on several counts. First of all, there is only one account of creation. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are the same account. Genesis 2 is a summation of the account in Genesis 1 and in addition narrows its primary focus to the creation of man and woman as set forth in Genesis 1:26-29.

Seconldy, the claim that Genesis 1 and 2 are metaphorical poetry is without solid foundation. First of all, they are written in concrete terms and provide too much detailed information to be poetry. Thirdly, neither chapter follows hebraic poetic forms. I speak and read Hebrew and when one studies the original language the claims of some that the author is being poetic simply does not hold up. The notion of metaphorical language being used in these passages is also unfounded. If there are metaphors being employed, the text would indicate such. It would tell us what the metaphors stand for. In addition, the rest of the Bible treats the creation account and indeed all of Genesis 1-11 as histortrical fact. There is no biblical corroboration for the creation account to be metaphorical. Since the text does not support a metaphorical or poetic view, your claim is unfounded.

I myself am a theistic evolutionist. I believe that God created the universe, but that he did it the way that science is beginning to discover. Through the Big Bang, Evolution, etc.

Theistic Evolution is an oxymoron. It is as logically inconsistent as "Atheistic Christianity." Orthodox Evolutionists reject God's involvement in Evolution in either a direct or indirect way. In order to hold to something like Theistic Evolution, one must degrade the theory of Evolution and/or the Bible. One cannot be a true Evolutionist AND a true Bible believer at the same time.

[Byron A]

I view the two Genesis accounts of Creation (Yes, there are TWO different accounts of creation in the first two chapters of Genesis) as metaphorical poetry.

You are mistaken on several counts. First of all, there is only one account of creation. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are the same account. Genesis 2 is a summation of the account in Genesis 1 and in addition narrows its primary focus to the creation of man and woman as set forth in Genesis 1:26-29.

Actually, it is two different accounts. The first account has a totally different order for how things were created. As one example, man is created is created after the animals in the first account, but is created before the animals in the second account.

Seconldy, the claim that Genesis 1 and 2 are metaphorical poetry is without solid foundation. First of all, they are written in concrete terms and provide too much detailed information to be poetry. Thirdly, neither chapter follows hebraic poetic forms. I speak and read Hebrew and when one studies the original language the claims of some that the author is being poetic simply does not hold up. The notion of metaphorical language being used in these passages is also unfounded. If there are metaphors being employed, the text would indicate such. It would tell us what the metaphors stand for. In addition, the rest of the Bible treats the creation account and indeed all of Genesis 1-11 as histortrical fact. There is no biblical corroboration for the creation account to be metaphorical. Since the text does not support a metaphorical or poetic view, your claim is unfounded.

I myself am a theistic evolutionist. I believe that God created the universe, but that he did it the way that science is beginning to discover. Through the Big Bang, Evolution, etc.

Theistic Evolution is an oxymoron. It is as logically inconsistent as "Atheistic Christianity." Orthodox Evolutionists reject God's involvement in Evolution in either a direct or indirect way. In order to hold to something like Theistic Evolution, one must degrade the theory of Evolution and/or the Bible. One cannot be a true Evolutionist AND a true Bible believer at the same time.

I am the contradiction to your claim that one cant be both. I am a Bible believer (I just disagree with you on how some passages should be interpreted) AND I am an evolutionist.

If I wasn't a Bible believer, why would I read the Bible daily? I read four passages daily, one from the Old Testament, one from the Psalms, one from the epistles, and one from the Gospels.

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, it is two different accounts. The first account has a totally different order for how things were created. As one example, man is created is created after the animals in the first account, but is created before the animals in the second account.

Yes it is a different order, but that is because it is not a different creation account. The focus is narrowed to the creation of man. Chapter two provides a summation of creation but primarily focuses on Day Six. It is not meant to be read as a chronological account of that particular day. The fact that order is changed is not the indication of a different account. The author simply restates that God created the animals and then states that God brought to them to man to be named. It is not trying to be chronological and that is borne out in the Hebrew grammar/sytax. There is no attempt to construct a different chronological order in Hebrew. So you are way off, there.

It is the chapter breaks that give the impression of a second account. The chapter breaks did not exist until around the 14 th century. So the original writer did not break between Genesis 1 and 2. What you have is a single account, essentially one line of thought, one creation account that continues on into finall summation and leads into man's first encounter with God. The author simply provides the overall order of creation and then narrows his focus to how God's relationship with man and the creation of woman and their relationship with God. The naming of the animals is really secondary to the overall focus of the author. While chapter 2 is complementary in focusing on day six, the creation of the woman is really leading to her tempation in chapter 3. The word toledoth, "these are the generations of" or "this is the account of" in 3:4 indicates a new section is beginning. The claims of a second creatrion account are entirely without literary foundation.

I am the contradiction to your claim that one cant be both. I am a Bible believer (I just disagree with you on how some passages should be interpreted) AND I am an evolutionist.

If I wasn't a Bible believer, why would I read the Bible daily? I read four passages daily, one from the Old Testament, one from the Psalms, one from the epistles, and one from the Gospels.

0

Evolution is predicated on a wholly naturalistic worldview that exludes God entirely, via Natural Selection. The theory of Evolution precludes God from the issue of origins either directlly or indirectly. It holds that life has evolved through an unguided, impersonal, naturalistic process known as natural selection.

The Bible says that Creation is the product of a personal, supernatural, all-knowing Creator who guides, plans and sustains His Creation. Evolution and the Bible are fundamentally incompatible and fundamentally contradictory.

You either don't understand the theory of Evolution or you don't understand the Bible, or both. It is also glaringly apparent that you have no grasp on hermeneutics (literary analysis) and how it works.

Evolution is really nothing but a modern form of idolatry, as its proponents seek to replace God with Natural Selection. You can read 50 chapters of the Bible a day, but if you reject and pervert what your read (as you do with Genesis 1 and 2), then your efforts are for nothing.

You can believe the Bible OR you can believe in Evolution, but you cannot have both.

[~candice~]

Byron, while I disagree with your interpretation of Gen 1-2, I do agree that we must be careful when stating that people cannot be genuine believers and evolutionists at the same time. Your stance on creation is not salvational. It does however, give a pretty good indication on the manner in which you approach bible study, interpretation, and the value/attributes of the Word. To me, this is more of interest than the position you end up taking in the creation / evolution debate. Can you please elaborate on how you view the Word? Perhaps this might be better suited in a different thread but I thought I'd get it out there where you might read it. God bless, Candice.

[Guest shiloh357]

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