Byron A

Cobalt, there is a reason that I don't discuss it. that's because its a pointless disscussion. People can quote Scripture out of context all day long until everyone is blue in the face. What would be the result? Anger at one another because the other "refuses" to see "the truth". Unlike the people you cite above, I have no ulterior motive for defending homosexuality. I am a happily engaged heterosexual man. Once again, I do not condone homosexual sexual behaviour. And my definition of lust apparently is different than yours. To me, a stray thought of a sexual nature is not lust. Its the entertaining of such thoughts that make lust. Do you see the difference? The stray thought is a temptation. How we deal with that is what determines if it is lust or not.

As I said before, I do not believe in Free Grace Theology in order to be able to live a life of sin. I am going through the process of sanctification just like everyone else here. If I wasn't, I wouldn't worry about being here or even going to church. I believe in Free Grace Theology because it is what the Holy Spirit has shown to me to be true. Lordship Salvation places both justification and sanctification under "salvation", and says that one cannot be saved without both. This borders on a works-based salvation. My belief is that salvation is easy. Sanctification is hard. Anyone can be saved and get into heaven by the skin of their teeth. To actually be a good and faithful servant, and to receive all the heavenly rewards God has promised, takes hard effort. I am not saying a Christian should frown upon good works. We should all be striving for good works. Its how we receive our heavenly rewards, by running the race well. BUT, these things have no bearing upon Salvation, which is earned by simple trust in Jesus Christ. I am off to school now! Have a good day and God bless!

Thats a can of worm that I do not want to open... I get in a lot of trouble with most fundies because I feel that both the ultra-Zionists in Israel and Hamas in the territories are responsible for this mess, and I think both need to be removed from power before anything can be done towards peace. I have probably already said too much. There's a reason I stay off the topics having to do with Israel on forums where the majority are Christian Zionists who believe that Israel can do no wrong...

And since when do you get do decide who is real Christian? Or what a real Christian does and does not believe? Do you have Scriptural support to back up that claim that a "real Christian" can see that?

That gets credit for above and beyond the normal conspiracy theories... Lol. Since I am a post-tribber, I do not believe that governments will have any chance for such deception...

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act. Faith is trust. Simple as that. Do you trust Christ to have taken care of your eternal salvation for you? I do. I am not saying that we shouldn't follow Him. I do follow Him. I am a disciple of Christ, obedient to Him. All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification. And sanctification is necessary for the abundant life Christ said He came to give us, as well as necessary for stocking up heavenly treasures (rewards in heaven) as Jesus commanded us to do. Bryon, It is the faith that saves, but you can't have the faith without the action. Faith and action are ALWAYS seen together. No action, means no faith, means no salvation. I disagree. That is works plus faith based salvation, which borderlines works based salvation. Works based salvation is very dangerous to one's spiritual health. Granted, it cannot take away your salvation, but it can still damage your spiritual health.

There was no ancient Hebrew or Greek word for homosexual, at least not used in the Bible. So the Bible couldn't define homosexuality. I recognize that most conservatives define homosexuality as those who practice sexual acts with the same sex. I agree that this definition of homosexuality is wrong and sinful. I, along with the majority of non-Conservatives in the western world, define homosexuality not as practice but rather as an orientation of being attracted to the same sex. I do not see anything wrong with being gay by this definition, as long as one refrains from lusting after (entertaining sexual fantasies of) others, and do not practice same-gendered sex. You have never answered my question on this topic. Why is there nothing wrong with holding onto desires that are in conflict with God? When a true Christian realises their desires are different to the Lord's, they get on their knees and beg for a renewed spirit and transformed mind. Never an acceptance of temptation to sin against Him. You must be born again. You must become a new creation. The old is.... DEAD. Not accepted, DEAD! I do not believe an attraction either way is against God. When it is unchecked and allowed to become lusting, then that is when it is in conflict with the Lord. That is the point that I say one should beg for a renewed spirit, that the lusting be removed. I feel the same about gays and straights. A heterosexual who is lusting after women is just as guilty (not more, nor less, guilty) than a homosexual lusting after men.

He actually did say that. Matthew 19 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him. The latter is known as sanctification, the former as justification. The result of justification is salvation, which can never be lost due to eternal life being eternal. The result of the sanctification is heavenly rewards, which can be earned and lost by good and evil works. A good article on rewards which goes into more depth than I have is http://www.faithalon...1b/Rewards.html . I would just like to point out that the New Testament promises us rewards based upon our good works. Salvation, however, is not a reward but a free gift. If someone comes to me and says come this way and get out of harms way, I have a choice either to put my trust in that person and follow them to safety or distrust them and walk in my own understanding. Faith is strong trust, trust that God will do as He promises and if He is going to do that for me I am going to completely trust Him and follow Him. Following follows trust, they go hand in hand or should. Or trust is incomplete, trust is followed by an action. No one here is debating salvation is a free gift, it is nothing we can do earns it it is given freely, rewards or blessings come from following His ways, they come from being in convenant with Him. Due. 30:1, 15, tells us that God sets up cursings and blessing for those who obey or disobey, Matt. 6:1 Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. When we believe, confess and return to Him He gives us the ablities to walk in His Torah we should not sound our own horn in what we do, we serve Him and His children and in that we do not boast or our rewards are tarnished and unworthy. I used to be Messianic, growing up. However, Torah-obedience (which is NOT valid for gentiles, Acts 15) has nothing to do with either justification nor sanctification, so I believe it is outside the scope of this discussion. I will just say that I disagree with "the blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience" idea as being of the old covenant and having no place in the New Covenant. And no one is saying that we should boast about anything. The rewards that I mentioned are eternal rewards that will will be awarded by God on Judgement Day. No one will be sounding their own alarm nor boasting about it. It will be awarded by God. Not doing good works will not result in the termination of our salvation, but rather result in chastisement in this life and loss of rewards in the World to Come.

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act. Faith is trust. Simple as that. Do you trust Christ to have taken care of your eternal salvation for you? I do. I am not saying that we shouldn't follow Him. I do follow Him. I am a disciple of Christ, obedient to Him. All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification. And sanctification is necessary for the abundant life Christ said He came to give us, as well as necessary for stocking up heavenly treasures (rewards in heaven) as Jesus commanded us to do.

He actually did say that. Matthew 19 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him. The latter is known as sanctification, the former as justification. The result of justification is salvation, which can never be lost due to eternal life being eternal. The result of the sanctification is heavenly rewards, which can be earned and lost by good and evil works. A good article on rewards which goes into more depth than I have is http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Rewards.html . I would just like to point out that the New Testament promises us rewards based upon our good works. Salvation, however, is not a reward but a free gift.

Well for heaven sakes! none of us will ever have salvation then! Perfect? perfect? I mean really? Yeshua was perfect because He was God in the flesh, He was perfect because He kept Torah perfectly because He is the Word in the flesh. I am so grateful that He accepts me with all my flaws, I am grateful that He accepts me as I struggle to walk in His perfect ways, I am grateful that I can strive to emulate Him in all ways but know that when I fail He is there to pick me back up and set me back on His path and forgive me when I confess my sins to Him. My whole point was that we can't earn our salvation. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can we be saved, because no one can be perfect in this life apart from Christ.

If you spent as much time actually reading the bible instead of other people's words, you wouldn't make statements like that. Matthew 5 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Genesis 17 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 Timothy 3 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. James 1 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. Job 8 20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers: Revelation 3 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. I am talking about being perfect on our own. The only way for us to become perfect in reality is by having faith in Jesus Christ. Like an old pastor of mine used to say, When God looks at us, it is through Christ-colored glasses. We are perfect only because Christ was perfect.

I wouldn't put too much stake in today's approval ratings. Americans are found to be short-memoried with yesterday's news. (And today is tomorrow's yesterday.)

Wait - are you saying that Jesus told the man a lie? No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

How do you handle such verses as: 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2) To "repent" means to have a change of mind. We read our own views into the text when we say that to repent means to forsake one's sins. So in the context of the gospel, what does it mean to change one's mind? It means to change your mind about being able to do it on your own, and to realize that you need a Savior who has already paid your debt in full. I believe this refers to sanctification, which is necessary if you want a right relationship with God here on Earth, and you want the rewards promised you in Paul's epistles in the Kingdom of Heaven. However, salvation is not a reward (it is a free gift), so salvation is not what is in view here when Jesus says this. I think this gets to the crux of the issue. Free Grace theology and Lordship Salvation each understand Jesus' role as Lord differently. In Lordship Salvation, Jesus being Lord means that you totally submit your entire life to Jesus Christ. In Free Grace Theology, Jesus is Lord by virtue of who He is, the Son of God. Nothing on our part is required in order for Jesus to be Lord. Its like being a King. If someone breaks a law and disobeys the King in a monarchy, does the King stop being the King? No, the King is still king. It is because Jesus is Lord that He is able to also be our Savior.