Prefall Death

[LuftWaffle]

I was doing an experiment this week in which I was looking at cell death and was reminded of some of the creationist positions regarding the genome and death after the fall. The "degradation of the genome" argument does not make sense to me because it is not supported by scripture. In fact, it is pretty clear that scripture incorporates death prior to sin does it not? While some could die from non natural causes (ie, accidents), old age must have occurred, which would mean that, for lack of a better word, human genomes were not "perfect" as some would die of old age--they'd just wear out, just as happens to some (the lucky ones!) today.

Hi Don,

I'd like to ask a couple of questions about some of the points you've made in the above:

1. When you say cell-death, are you not committing a non-sequitur by applied what's true for the part to the whole? A dying cell doesn't necessarily prove an organism dies, just like a flat tire doesn't mean your car is flat.

2. What kind of cell-death are you referring to? As far as I know there's controlled cell death and uncontrolled cell death. Controlled cell-death is essential for life and this isn't necessarily precluded in the pre-fall world. Cell-death is merely the anthropomorphic term for deletions of spent cells.

3. The only genomes that are available to study are post-fall genomes. Adam's genome isn't available, so based on what do you say that "old age must have occurred"?

Thanks

Edited May 21, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[Guest]

I was doing an experiment this week in which I was looking at cell death and was reminded of some of the creationist positions regarding the genome and death after the fall. The "degradation of the genome" argument does not make sense to me because it is not supported by scripture. In fact, it is pretty clear that scripture incorporates death prior to sin does it not? While some could die from non natural causes (ie, accidents), old age must have occurred, which would mean that, for lack of a better word, human genomes were not "perfect" as some would die of old age--they'd just wear out, just as happens to some (the lucky ones!) today.

Dear One Your Philosophy Is Clearly Distorting Your Observation

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

For Death Is Not A Good Thing But A Curse

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17

And Jesus Is Salvation

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:21

And Satan Lies

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Genesis 3:1

And Lies

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3:4

And Men Lie

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isaiah 45:9

And Lie

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:3-6

And God's Word Is True From The Begining

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

To The End

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelations 21:4

You See

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

____________

Be Blessed Beloved

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Proverbs 3:13-15

Love, Joe

[Don Fanucci]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

Psalm 104:19-21 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God.

v20-21 clearly make the initial seven days of creation the time frame, within which the lions exist and actually use the darkness to hunt.

[Don Fanucci]

There was no death prior to the fall. All animals and humans were created to be vegitarians. We do not find ANY physical or spiritual death prior to the sin of Adam. The fall in garden effected the entire world, not only man. Paul in Romans 5 deals with the impact it had on man because He was making a theological and didactic point. Romans 5 cannot be used to make the assertion that the effects of the fall were only limited to mankind. God told Adam that even the ground was cursed for his sake and that is when it would be difficult for man to get it grow edible vegitation.

God did not engineer death into creation. How do we know this?? Because the Bible tells what life will be like after sin is eradicated from the universe. According to Scripture, there will be no more sickness, pain, sorrow, no more curse and no more death. There will be no more twisted and deformed bodies, no more physical disabilities, no more disease. There will no more predators in the animal kingdom.

The world will be restored to its conditions prior to the fall of man. The obedience of Christ (the Last Adam) will reverse the curse of the first Adam.

The explanation of what happens if Adam eats the fruit from the tree of life, "you shall surely die" pretty clearly demonstrates that the reference to death is spiritual death, not the end of biological existance. As I indicated, unchecked multiplication is not compatible with life. Also see my post to oneight referencing lions hunting prey in response to no predatation.

While you are arguing that the "world will be restored...", that belief reflects an opinion that the world will be reset to its previous state that existed prior to sin. It ignores the possibility that had Adam not sinned, the world would have progressed to that condition and presumably other conditions, not return to it.

[Don Fanucci]

Don, it seems that your argument is that if things multiply without limits the world will run out of space. I think it's a fair point, a check of some sort is needed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there must have been death, since death isn't the only way to curb population growth. Infertility would be another option, especially when one looks at the role God plays in terms of fertility of the land, animals and people throughout scripture.

I disagree as once something becomes infertile, you have extinction. on the otherhand, even if you reduce fertility, unless you are removing members of the population, every new birth is a net addition. Because of the nature of how ecosystems are interdependent, you would need to effect fertility rates of every organism, even the plants.

I also agree with Shiloh that the Genesis has theological implications looking ahead. If the fall was only spiritual, then one has to ask why Jesus had to die physically to reverse the curse? Couldn't He just suffer a spiritual death for us?

Likewise the promise of everlasting life, sealed with His resurrection, is that merely in a spiritual sense, or will our glorified bodies literally live forever? The Bible seems clear that we will have real physical bodies in heaven and these bodies will not die. It is appointed for a man to die once.

I think given that most people were not aware that they were spiritually dead, the physical death of Christ, and the graphic nature in which it occured--clearly sacrificial, better demonstarted the point.

[Don Fanucci]

I was doing an experiment this week in which I was looking at cell death and was reminded of some of the creationist positions regarding the genome and death after the fall. The "degradation of the genome" argument does not make sense to me because it is not supported by scripture. In fact, it is pretty clear that scripture incorporates death prior to sin does it not? While some could die from non natural causes (ie, accidents), old age must have occurred, which would mean that, for lack of a better word, human genomes were not "perfect" as some would die of old age--they'd just wear out, just as happens to some (the lucky ones!) today.

Hi Don,

I'd like to ask a couple of questions about some of the points you've made in the above:

1. When you say cell-death, are you not committing a non-sequitur by applied what's true for the part to the whole? A dying cell doesn't necessarily prove an organism dies, just like a flat tire doesn't mean your car is flat.

2. What kind of cell-death are you referring to? As far as I know there's controlled cell death and uncontrolled cell death. Controlled cell-death is essential for life and this isn't necessarily precluded in the pre-fall world. Cell-death is merely the anthropomorphic term for deletions of spent cells.

3. The only genomes that are available to study are post-fall genomes. Adam's genome isn't available, so based on what do you say that "old age must have occurred"?

Thanks

You are referring to apoptosis. I wasn't thinking of that. Generally I started thing about death as a result of what I was working on, not in relation to it.

More specifically, I was thinking of aging, as in not being immortal, which is what the state of biological orgainsims would have been in if there was not death. I also have not substantially thought about it, but it would seem that Genesis says that there are other humans in addition to Adam and Eve, otherwise God would have not given the command to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Since this command is prefall, it would seem unlikely that he would give it and yet have it never fulfilled (because Adam and Eve were the only two humans), prefall.

Lastly, going back to my original post, its not clear how creationists conclude that the genomes were perfect and non mutable simply because God made them. God only refers to everything he made as "good" and "very good", not perfect (flawless, as would would equate with Christ)

[Isaiah 6:8]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

Um no. The lions hunt in the normal nighttime this is not a reference to the creation. Invalid arguments do not make your case very well. You show that you are driven by emotion not logic.

Psalm 104:19-21 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God.

v20-21 clearly make the initial seven days of creation the time frame, within which the lions exist and actually use the darkness to hunt.

[Don Fanucci]

Um no. The lions hunt in the normal nighttime this is not a reference to the creation. Invalid arguments do not make your case very well. You show that you are driven by emotion not logic.

Psalm 104:19-21 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God.

v20-21 clearly make the initial seven days of creation the time frame, within which the lions exist and actually use the darkness to hunt.

And what is their prey? Plants? I don't think so. However, there is further evidence in an earlier discussion I had regarding Adam having to name the animals. The hebrew name for lion is rooted in a word for violence. Would that really refer to how lions graze? How about the derivative for Eagle (to lacerate)? Would eagles really lacerate plants.

[LuftWaffle]

I disagree as once something becomes infertile, you have extinction. on the otherhand, even if you reduce fertility, unless you are removing members of the population, every new birth is a net addition. Because of the nature of how ecosystems are interdependent, you would need to effect fertility rates of every organism, even the plants.

But extinction would only happen if you had death, which is exactly what we're saying didn't happen in paradise. Populations depend on births versus deaths. If you have no deaths and you have no births your current population remains the same size.

I think given that most people were not aware that they were spiritually dead, the physical death of Christ, and the graphic nature in which it occured--clearly sacrificial, better demonstarted the point.

Are you saying that the physical death and resurrection has no importance other than being demonstrative of spiritual rebirth?

I'd also like to know how you see everlasting life. Will our glorified bodies still die in heaven, but our spirits will live on. Will we go through numerous physical bodies in heaven as they age and deplete, as in a sort of reincarnation? If not then why will an immortal body work in heaven but not in paradise?

[Guest shiloh357]

Um no. The lions hunt in the normal nighttime this is not a reference to the creation. Invalid arguments do not make your case very well. You show that you are driven by emotion not logic.

Psalm 104:19-21 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God.

v20-21 clearly make the initial seven days of creation the time frame, within which the lions exist and actually use the darkness to hunt.

And what is their prey? Plants? I don't think so. However, there is further evidence in an earlier discussion I had regarding Adam having to name the animals. The hebrew name for lion is rooted in a word for violence. Would that really refer to how lions graze? How about the derivative for Eagle (to lacerate)? Would eagles really lacerate plants.

Hebrew is a semitic language that did not exist pre-flood. The semitic peoples are not mentioned until Genesis 10. Hebrew is one of several semitic languages like Aramaic and so forth, and so to use the Hebrew word for lion is simply a non starter. We do not have any idea what Adam namd the animals.

Secondly, you are assuming that the current animals we have today are the same that existed before the flood. That may not be the case.