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LuftWaffle

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About LuftWaffle

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  1. LuftWaffle

    Is Hell Real?

    I'm aware of the ECT prooftexts. It's basically two sections in Revelation that are visionary symbols, but must be read at face value to support ECT. One parable in Luke (The rich man and Lazarus) which doesn't describe the fate of the unsaved, and then about five or six passages that require eternal conscious torment to be read into them before they can be used as proof texts, but in actual fact are better support for my view when understood in their context. Is that what you're referring to? If so, I'm aware of those verses and I've studied them very carefully, but I'm always happy to discuss it with honest enquirers
  2. LuftWaffle

    Is Hell Real?

    Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
  3. LuftWaffle

    Is Hell Real?

    As an annihilationist I voted yes. The question is rather odd, because annihilationists don't deny hell, we simply deny that hell consists of eternal conscious torment. Instead we believe that the bible clearly teaches that the fate of the unsaved is death and the word 'hell' refers to Gehenna a.k.a. the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom which is described as a place of slaughter. So I guess the question should rather have been, "who denies the idea that the fate of the unsaved is eternal conscious torment?" Neither ECT, nor Annihilationists nor Universalists deny hell, so I'm not surprised that there are no 'no' votes.
  4. No, Siegi information is not physical. What is measurable is not the information but the medium upon which information is stored/represented. If Beethoven's fifth symphony is stored (i.e. represented) on a hard-drive it can be measured in bits, if it is played on a piano it can be measured as sound waves, if it is stored on a cassette tape it can be measured as magnetic nodes, if it is written on paper with ink it can be stored as music notation, but none of those mediums ARE the information, they're merely mediums storing a tokenized version of the information. One cannot ask how magnetic Beethoven's 5th Symphony is, because it's not the information that's magnetic but a certain storage medium. etc. In short then, it seems you're conflating the message with the medium. This would be true only in a fully deterministic worldview. The problem is that you expect to be paid for the novel work that you do, likewise inventors and artists don't credit the universe (or cause-effect) for the intellectual property they produce, because they know that they, as individual minds, have produced something and that they deserve some credit for it. This is why it's so absurd that Stephen Hawking can in one book espouse determinism and yet miss the irony of then expecting royalties for selling that book. If the universe is deterministic, are people responsible for anything they do?
  5. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    The Bible says we shouldn't fear those who can only kill the body but not the soul, but instead we should fear Him who can completely destroy both in Gehenna. Gehenna of course being the place Jeremiah described as a valley of slaughter. The idea that facing judgement and execution by the living God is laughable, and just like going to sleep, shows that perhaps too much of popular theology is driven by the hedonistic impulse of avoiding pain, than a true desire to regain what mankind lost, which is access to the tree of life, so that one may eat and live forever. While the bible consistently describes the gospel as a life and death matter, popular theology has reduced the gospel to a matter of location, an eternal holiday resort or an eternal medieval dungeon. And then we wonder why young people nowadays don't respect the sanctity of life and instead are only concerned with seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.
  6. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    Not only was it a parable, but it describes a scenario prior to judgement. Now you're trying to bolster the idea that the rich man will forever be tormented by referring once again going back to Revelation and reading the apocalyptic symbolism therein as non-symbolic and using it to reinterpret the rest of scripture. So when I challenged you to offer a clear didactic teaching not relying on parable or symbolism you offer a parable interpreted through the lens of the symbolism in Revelation, lol. How exactly is this supposed to show that the entire ECT doctrine isn't built on taking parable and apocalyptic symbols out of context? You don't even realise that you're actually proving my point. At least you're also trying to offer another verse, this time the undying worms and the unquenchable fire. It seems that now you're just going through the handful of ECT prooftexts and hoping something works. As such I'll leave you with an excerpt of my opening statement in the debate on annihilationism, where you can read responses to the typical ECT prooftexts including the passage you mentioned. Those text actually form part of the case for annihilationism. Unquenchable fire Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. What traditionalists do here is make logical inferences that look as follows: 1: The fire is unquenchable. 2: To be unquenchable is to burn forever. 3: To burn forever requires fuel that’ll last forever 4: It is the unsaved that fuels the fire 5: Therefore the unsaved will burn forever. This is roughly the thought process that drives the belief that this is a proof-text for the traditionalist point of view. The problem is that premise 2 is a false premise, because this is not how “Unquenchable fire” is understood in Biblical language. Let’s see if we can interpret the phrase in light of a clear passage elsewhere in scripture that might help us understand what the bible means by “unquenchable fire”: Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto Me… then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. Eze 20:47-48 … Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched. Scripture then, seems to define an unquenchable fire as a fire that cannot be stopped from completely devouring that which it burns. This aligns even with our English language use of the word “quench”, which means to put out a fire. It’s not a description of how long a fire burns. So if we look at how the “unquenchable fire” is used in scripture, it seems to better support the Annihilationist view, which is of a fire that consumes and devours rather than merely tormenting that which it burns. Immortal worms Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. We’ve already covered unquenchable fire, but what about these pesky immortal worms? Let’s look at the traditionalist inferences: 1: The worms don’t die 2: Worms that don’t die live forever 3: The worms are eating the unsaved 4: Therefore the unsaved are eaten forever Let’s see if we can get some clarity on what’s going on here, by looking at the passage in the Old Testament that Jesus is quoting here: Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. The scene in Isaiah 66 depicts carcases being eaten by worms and being burnt up by fire. It’s not a picture of living souls being tormented by fires that burn forever and worms that never die. The significance of the worms is rather interesting, because in Jewish culture it was considered shameful for a dead body to see decay. Bodies needed to be properly buried, not left out in the open to be devoured by scavengers, maggots and fire. The picture that Isaiah is describing, and which Jesus referencing is a picture of unstoppable decay and corruption. We see a similar situation in Jeremiah: Jer 7:33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. This time we have, not worms, but birds feeding on the dead bodies, and the description that there’ll be nobody to ‘shoo’ them away, and thus stopping the shameful consumption of these dead bodies. We see the emphasis on not seeing decay clearly in the following Psalm: Psa 16:9-11 Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. This Psalm expresses David’s desire to be protected from his enemies, to not be dishonoured by having his body rotting on the battle field, but the psalm is also looking ahead to Christ whose body didn’t see decay and corruption but was risen on the third day, as we see here: Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. So when Jesus is talking about the unsaved being burnt with unquenchable fire and eaten by worms that won’t die, he is simply saying that nothing will prevent the shameful destruction of the unsaved. The consumption of the bodies won’t be prematurely stopped by the death of the maggots, and the burning up won’t be prematurely stopped by quenching the fires.
  7. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    You shouldn't teach about hermeneutics and then violate the very things you're teaching by importing speculations that simply aren't in the text. Nowhere does Rev 22:11 describe the evil of the evildoers and the righteousness of righteous continuing for all eternity. What is there, is the angel sandwiching the statement between mentioning "not to seal up the propecy of the book for the time is near", and a statement referring to the coming judgement, where obviously the aforementioned evil and good will be judged. That precisely is what judgement is for, to JUDGE the good and evil deeds. To pretend that the judgement precedes the good and evil deeds just because you're desperately looking for something that you can use to harmonise the Platonist notion that all people will spent eternity somewhere, is not warranted by the text at all. The idea that people will continue to sin in hell is nowhere in the Bible. It's a theory that theologians came up with to explain why God would infinitely torture people for finite crimes. It's a philosophical speculation, ancillary to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. You cannot read that into the text, then claim the interpretation as proof for the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. One would expect that with such shoddy exegesis, and so much question begging you'd come across as less self-assured. I guess that's the Dunning-Kruger internet for you.
  8. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    Firstly the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that, a parable not a "clear didactic passage". Secondly, the scenario depicting in the parable takes place prior to final judgement as evidenced by the rich man wanting to warn his brothers who are still alive. So it has nothing to do with the final fate of the wicked. Thirdly it mention nothing about "continuing" consciousness for all eternity. So basically none of what you're saying is actually in this passage. If only we could have clear description of what is going to happen to the ungodly (besides of course all the other plain straightforward texts I've already offered mentioning death, destruction perishing etc)... If only we could have an example so that we don't have to guess... Image that! 2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
  9. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    Okay, but then it cannot be used as a proof-text against death meaning ordinary death.
  10. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    This is a philosophical argument you're trying to run here, and my primary concern is what the Bible teaches. If the Bible throughout the Torah reserved execution for the worst of crimes and God decides to continue that at the final judgement, which I believe the text teaches, I really couldn't care less that you think it's a "sweet deal" for some whom you think deserves what you consider a worse punishment. I'm not sure why you think the execution that God has planned will only last a minute or two, but even if it does, I'm pretty certain you'd rather want you children to live forever in the new earth, than endure it. So with that I do differ from your opinion (and it is mere opinion on your part) in that I believe the glories of life on the new earth is worth living for and I believe in the inherent value of life, something you seem to place little stock in. I also don't view being condemned and executed by the living God as, "big whoop".
  11. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    Nothing about "dying you shall die" indicates that this excludes physical death and that it refers to some notion of spiritual death. As I mentioned all Young Earth Creationists (creation.com and answers in genesis has loads of articles on this for instance) believe that physical death entered into creation at this point. The text doesn't require that Adam die immediately because "In the day that you eat thereof" can be read as "When you eat thereof". As such there is no reason to assume the bible is introducing an esoteric definition of death here. https://answersingenesis.org/death-before-sin/genesis-2-17-you-shall-surely-die/ So, what seems to happen is that Young Earth Creationists use Gen 2:17 as a proof-text that physical death entered as a result of the fall when talking to evolutionists/Old Earth Creationists, and they use Gen 2:17 as a proof-text against death being physical when talking to Annihilationists.
  12. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    Why on earth would you think that losing out on eternal life in God's kingdom and being with Him versus facing judgement and execution at the hands of God is of no consequence? But since you think that ceasing to live is of no consequence, why then did Jesus have to die in our place if death isn't really the punishment that we would face? Did Jesus breathing his last breath on that cross take upon himself an inconsequential punishment, because according to you only eternal corporal punishment counts as 'real punishment'? Exactly, this is why it's so strange that God would say to Adam "In the day you eat thereof you will surely die", when He really meant, "In the day you eat thereof you will live forever in torment". Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? Perhaps Jesus should have mentioned that by "die" He meant 'living forever in torment' so as not to blow smoke, right before He physically raised Lazarus from the dead, yes? And why did Jesus weep at the death of His friend Lazarus? Did He not understand that death is of no consequence? This is one of the sad repercussions of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. It makes people view the gift of life as inconsequential, because they've been desensitised by torture obsessed Roman influence and cartoonish images of Dante etc. Instead of a gift of life vs death as the gospel presents it, the church gradually changed it to a hedonistic choice of eternal torture vs eternal bliss.
  13. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    Actually the opposite is true. John saw a vision of a lake of fire and the interpreting angel interpreted the images as referring to the second death. So you're confusing image with interpretation. You treat the lake of fire as real and the second death as symbolic whereas the bible does the exact opposite. I've dealt with Rev 20 already. These are visionary images depicting the end of dominions. Just like the Harlot being thrown into the lake of fire is interpreted by the angel to John as the end of Mystery Babilon, and just as death and hades thrown into the lake of fire signifies the end of death, so too it is reasonable that the images of the dragon, the multiheaded beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and tormented, refers in real life to the end of these dominions. The only play the eternal conscious torment camp has is to treat the visionary symbols of Revelation as if they're literal. I am not denying everlasting punishment. I believe the punishment of the unsaved is permanent death not temporary death, so annihilationists affirm an everlasting punishment. It is Universalists who deny everlasting punishment. I am not one of them. You claimed everybody, those in heaven and those in hell will get eternal bodies. Are you now denying you said that. Ok, so you've gone from confidently claiming that the bible teaches that all people are immortal, to now, after being unable to find a single verse supporting that, admitting that what you know is what your pastor taught you. This is the problem, I too was convinced that all people lived forever and that death meant separation, because I was also taught those things in Sunday school. It's only when I started looking into it myself that I realised that what I've been taught just isn't there. The reason you're having a hard time finding verses proving your claims is because you've been told what is 'biblical' instead of testing the things you've been taught against scripture, and when you read the bible you're filtering it by the received doctrine you've been taught instead of what he words actually say. This is why you cannot answer why the bible talks about life and death and yet you believe everybody is immortal, because you auto-replace life and death with popular doctrine. For instance when you read John 3:16 you read it as follows: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish live forever in hell but live forever (in heaven).
  14. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    On one hand you're saying Paul was urging people to seek after immortal bodies, but on the other you claim everybody will have immortal bodies: My point is that Paul urging people to seek immortality makes no sense in such a case. It would be like Paul urging people to seek having 10 fingers and toes. Why seek what you will get anyway? If human beings are immortal by default, then there is nothing to seek after. The key issue here is why is Paul talking as if life and death is at stake when you believe it's not about life or death, since everybody lives forever anyway? None of the verses you offer demonstrate that the unsaved will live forever: Luke 16:22 is the parable about the rich man and Lazarus and it takes place prior to final judgement in Hades. Nothing there about the unsaved living forever. 2 Cor 5:1-8 speaks of believers. Nothing there about the unsaved living forever Phil 1:23 Is Paul's desire to be with the Lord. Surely you're not using Paul as an example of an unsaved person who will live forever? Rev 6:9 Prior to final judgement. Nothing here about the unsaved living forever. Rev 7:9 Refers to the great multitude standing before the throne and praising and worshiping God. They are not unbelievers. So instead of pretending that you have a point which I don't understand, why don't you actually provide scripture that supports your assertion that all people (including the unsaved) will live forever. To recap: Your claim is that both the saved and the unsaved are bodily and soul immortal. You claimed that the Bible teaches it. I countered by saying the offer of immortality is only for the saved. Your response was to provide verses referring to: a) the saved - These do not help you b) pre-judgement verses - these do not help you either.
  15. LuftWaffle

    Musings in regard to Hell

    What about my burden of proof? Do you think Annihilationists could offer some didactic teaching that describes the fate of the unsaved as death and describes them as not living forever and that eternal life is a gift only of the saved? Do you think I would also need to incorporate pagan definitions into the text and redefine half the New Testament, or could I make my case that the unsaved will die, by simply letting the text speak for itself? What do you think? What if death just meant death, and eternal life, just meant living forever? 2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:13: For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. John 6:50: This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. John 11:25–26: Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 1 John 2:17: The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
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