Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 The loss of life is always very tragic. It is about more than going to heaven. I don't expect you to understand. Belief in God gives us a far better undertanding and appreciation for the value and purpose of life than does your empty athestic worldview. In that worldview, humans have no more intrinsic values than any other part of the created order. Of course it is, but only because of humanistic values, since I think there is no surviving soul after death. My point is that, as an atheist, I know that the only life we have is here and now, and this tends to put a very high value to it. But as a Christian, I would think differently, and I did. How many of these aborted children would have been saved if they managed to grow old? Not many. But even if only one of them would have been damned, the end result is still worse than having them all saved, by default. What is the real advantage of living some decades in this fallen world, under constant threat of eternal damnation? To know God? I expect you know Him in Heaven, too. To awe at nature? To live with our families and friend? I expect you can do that in Heaven, too. I do not see any advantage that justifies the risks, if the salvation doctine were true. The time we spend here is just too short (actually it is zero compared with eternity) and there is no real positive experience we can do here that can offset the guarantee of an eternity of bliss. That is a very sick, twisted and perverse take on the value of human life. Abortion is murder. I have heard of parents who murder their children because they could not provide for their children and thought their chldren would be better off dead and in heaven than to live in poverty. Abortion is no different. Abortions are not done with the best interest of the child in mind. They are usually performed to avoid parental responsibility. To take an innocent human life can NEVER be justified. If a parent strangeld their 21-day old baby, would you champion that as beneficial to the baby??? There is no fundamental difference between that and abortion. The only real difference is that in an abortion you may get to see what your killing. If going to heaven somehow sanitizes abortion, when why not just make it open season on Christans since they are going to heaven anyway. Just murder them as well. I am sorry but what are espousing is just sick on every level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 I am sorry, it is not my mind that is twisted, this is precisely what Christians say (famous and respected apologist William Lane Craig): http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767 Excerpt: "Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God’s grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven’s incomparable joy. Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives." He seems to contradict the fact that taking an innocent life can NEVER be justified. And if you think I am sick to believe that Christians have such ideas, you should extend this courtesy to Mr. Craig. I never heard of this man before. But after reading the article, I would say that you missed the entire point of his message. Plus your words present a false message that this man would or does support abortion or infanticide, and that is a false report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 I am not cruel, I am precise. I also had a couple of miscarriages. The post does not speak explicitly of induced abortions, and since spontaneous ones are also, semantically, still abortions, then I needed to correct. But I understand what you mean, for you abortion=induced-abortion and for me miscarriage=spontaneous-abortion, that is why we had a misunderstanding. But I do not really understand why this is so tragic. I agree that for someone like me who does not believe in an afterlife it is a tragedy, but if you believe in salvation and make the safe assumption that unborn children go straight to Heaven, then it should not be so sad. If I apply cold logic to that (leaving emotions aside: difficult but possible) then, if I were a Christian and believed in Heaven, I would have preferred to be aborted (spontaneously or not) and get a risk free ticket to Heaven, rather than risk to become an apostate (what happened) and go to Hell. What I am finding surprising in this particular debate, viole, is how I am hearing more heart and emotion coming from the men responding to this than I am from you. I don't know what emotions you have, but not a drop of them come through this response. The impression that comes across is, "Miscarriage, no big deal." No one can perceive an emotional impact coming from you. It's as if your emotions have died and you are all intellect an logic. How is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 The taking of innocent human life is murder and to say that murder is okay in some circumstances is simply wrong and I am surprised that you champion such a disgusting view. You are mistaken. I did not express these views with my atheist hat on, I expressed them from the point of view of some Christians. Of course I believe that taking a conscious human life is wrong (I extend this to capital punishement), I just simply pointed out what the salvation doctrine could lead to. And since William Lane Craig is probably the most famous and respected Christian apologist around, I just showed exactly that, which is, in agreement with you, abhorrent. I have removed my previous comments because I now see that you had link I missed before. Nothing you said is representative of "some Christians." You have completely misrepresented and misapplied what Craig was trying to say. You took his word and applied them to a context and topic they were not intended to address. That is dishonest. Craig was dealing with the issue of God's judgment of the Canaanites and his remarks need to remain in that context. He did not intend his remarks to be used out of context to justify abortion as a good thing for the aborted babies. Those babies are torn limb from limb or they are burned with acid or some other horrific method and for anyone to say such action is justified just because the babies go to heaven is morally repulsive and your ability to coldy make such assertions again show the moral failings and utter emptiness of an atheistic worldview. I never said that it was wrong to take a human life. I said it was wrong to take an innocent human life. To be honest it is apparent that you don't have enough of an understanding of Christian values to really qualifed to address them despite your cliam that you are a former Christian. You are not a former Christian. You might have had "religion" at some point, but you were never an authentic Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Actually, when it comes to abortion, emotions run pretty high. Like most people here in North Europe, I am pro-choice, but I sit on the more conservative part of it. For instance, I support our church when it tries to facilitate adoptions if this will cause less abortions. There are too many people that cannot have children and really want to have them, that it is a shame that this is blocked by excessive beaurocracy. I also believe that the law is a bit too permissive here; in Sweden it is perfectly legal to perform a gender based abortion. In other words, it is a right of the mother to adduce this is a sufficient motive if she does not want a child of a certain gender, as long as this is known before the 18th week. I also find this a bit too permissive. I am pro- choice as well... These are the choices I am for Abstinence. This is a choice and guess what its 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. Other forms of preventive birth controls. Keeping the Baby. Giving it up for adoption. These are all choices. Lots of them. However, since I belive Abortion is Murder. Murder is not an option. The truth is, the "Pro-Choice" Crowd are to ashamed to speak the truth. They are the polar opposite of the Pro-Life crowd. They are in fact the "Pro-Death" crowd. They try to make it as though us Pro-Lifer's are anti choice. This is not true. We are anti Death. Pro Choice is just that, Pro Death and destruction. There is no other way to state it. you kill a child. Even the term that pro choice people like to use to try to avoide the term of child is Fetus, and that term means offspring. It denotes a child. To be pro choice is to be pro death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedByGrace1981 Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,925 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 462 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/02/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/22/1953 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I am pro- choice as well... These are the choices I am for Abstinence. This is a choice and guess what its 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. Other forms of preventive birth controls. Keeping the Baby. Giving it up for adoption. These are all choices. Lots of them. However, since I belive Abortion is Murder. Murder is not an option. The truth is, the "Pro-Choice" Crowd are to ashamed to speak the truth. They are the polar opposite of the Pro-Life crowd. They are in fact the "Pro-Death" crowd. They try to make it as though us Pro-Lifer's are anti choice. This is not true. We are anti Death. Pro Choice is just that, Pro Death and destruction. There is no other way to state it. you kill a child. Even the term that pro choice people like to use to try to avoide the term of child is Fetus, and that term means offspring. It denotes a child. To be pro choice is to be pro death. This is why precise language is so important. The Redefining of Polticial Speak. Control the Language; Control the Argument Blessings! -Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Actually, when it comes to abortion, emotions run pretty high. I was referring to your reaction and responses to miscarriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2011 DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. My opinions are my own. You do not have to accept them if you dislike them. Dear OldEnglishSheepdog, Thank you for your comments. Right, but the whole point is that when the Constitution was established the definition of marriage was set. The rapid deterioration of the definition is not consistent with the original purposes. It makes no sense to change the definition, and until the definition is changed it is not a matter or rights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted June 3, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Actually, when it comes to abortion, emotions run pretty high. I was referring to your reaction and responses to miscarriage. Well, in my case it was not a big deal because I did not know I was pregnant. It is logical to assume that other women could react differently, especially if they want a child and just go from one miscarriage to the other. Maybe I am cold, as you said, but I think we can agree that the loss of an ehmbryo of a couple of weeks is not comparable with the loss of a fully formed and conscious child who already walked the earth. I can guarantee that I will feel some strong emotions if this happens to any of my kids. And if you guys insist in calling pro-choice people murders then the vast majority of north Europeans are murders, do you think the death penalty is appropriate for them? If you say no you are not cosequent, if you say yes then you are not much different than the Phelps family. The world is not painted in black and white, here is a huge grey zone. I said they were for murder, not murderers. If you kill your child yes you have committed murder. But then the Bible says that even if you say in your heart that you hate your brother, you are a murderer. We are all guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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