Guest man Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I just want to remind you guys that this thread was based on an article I wrote for the Examiner. In this article, I do argue that it is not possible to lose your salvation but sin has its own set of consequences. If you are interested, please check it out. It might either give you a new perspective or something to argue. http://www.examiner.com/christianity-in-west-palm-beach/dear-fearful-is-it-possible-to-loose-your-salvation-read-on Agreed! "We are punished by our sins, not for them" "Punished by our sins"........Really? You honestly believe that? Yes in a roundabout way. I am not alluding to scripture here. Rob a bank (sin right?), you will end up being shot, or in prision. Punished by your sin. Drink too much, lose control, drive your car, kill another driver, end up in prison. Punished by your sin. if you get my drift.... That's called "Karma". Is that something you find compatible with the Word? No, it is not Karma. Karma is the law that you incur pentalties for bad actions and rewards for good actions in a subsquent life. You work off bad karma by doing good deeds in this life in order to enjoy a more advanced satus in a subsequent life. What Fez is referring to is reaping the consquences in THIS life for the choices you make today. He's also saying there's no punishment for sin. Notice the second half of the quote. "We are punished by our sins, not for them". I'm only assuming, but I'm sure he doesn't believe that. What about the people who never get caught? Are we to assume their actions are not sinful? And what about the people who are robbed? Are they paying for some sin they committed in the past? And dying at the hands of a drunk driver. There had to be some serious sinning going on to warrant death. "We are punished by our sins, not for them" is something Elbert Hubbard said. He's a known atheist and has his own section in "The Atheist's Bible". Where is the benefit in this man's words? The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 9, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2011 The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment? Not quite the same thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment? Not quite the same thing.... Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 9, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2011 The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment? Not quite the same thing.... Explain. It's the reason why forgiveness of sins is not enough to be saved, we must be born again. Because there is a sin nature that has to die, as well as the acting out of that nature (sins). The physical and spiritual consequence of sin is bodily death and separation from God. When we are born again, the spiritual consequence has been removed but we still bodily die. Sins, the fruit of our sin nature, were forgiven on the cross, however the earthly consequences of those actions still remain and affect us. Not just our sins, but the sins of others as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment? Not quite the same thing.... Explain. It's the reason why forgiveness of sins is not enough to be saved, we must be born again. Because there is a sin nature that has to die, as well as the acting out of that nature (sins). The physical and spiritual consequence of sin is bodily death and separation from God. When we are born again, the spiritual consequence has been removed but we still bodily die. Sins, the fruit of our sin nature, were forgiven on the cross, however the earthly consequences of those actions still remain and affect us. Not just our sins, but the sins of others as well. So do you agree with this statement? "We are punished by our sins, not for them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 9, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2011 I think 'punish' needs qualifying - who punishes us? The 'punishment' if that's what people want to call it, is just that we live in a sinful fallen world and are not protected from all of the consequences of sins. God doesn't punish us for something that is forgiven, but He does allow temporal earthly consequences to remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I think 'punish' needs qualifying - who punishes us? The 'punishment' if that's what people want to call it, is just that we live in a sinful fallen world and are not protected from all of the consequences of sins. God doesn't punish us for something that is forgiven, but He does allow temporal earthly consequences to remain. If there's no punishment for sin, then what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 9, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2011 I think 'punish' needs qualifying - who punishes us? The 'punishment' if that's what people want to call it, is just that we live in a sinful fallen world and are not protected from all of the consequences of sins. God doesn't punish us for something that is forgiven, but He does allow temporal earthly consequences to remain. If there's no punishment for sin, then what's the point? When I say 'us' I am referring to Christians. The penalty for our sin is paid by Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 He's also saying there's no punishment for sin. Notice the second half of the quote. "We are punished by our sins, not for them". I'm only assuming, but I'm sure he doesn't believe that. You are taking his sentence further than he intended and are assigning it the values you want it to have, instead of taking it for what he meant to say. His point is that sins we commit have consequences in this life. Drunk driving, sexual immorality, drugs, adultery, murder, lying, these things have consequences and they can be very costly and painful. Looking back at Fez's posting history and his stance on sin, I don't think you can make your case based on ONE sentence, what Fez really believes. You are misrepresenting his intentions and him, personally. It looks like you are just wanting to pick a fight with someone who doesn't believe we lose our salvation. What about the people who never get caught? Are we to assume their actions are not sinful? Did someone say that just because someone doesn't get caught their actions are not sinful??? And what about the people who are robbed? Are they paying for some sin they committed in the past? No one is saying that every unfortunate situation we encounter is a recomopense for sin. Only that sins have consequences built into them. And dying at the hands of a drunk driver. There had to be some serious sinning going on to warrant death.Not necessarily. It is the drunk driver who will incur serious repcrecussions for his actions. Innocent people die all of the time due to no fault of their own. "We are punished by our sins, not for them" is something Elbert Hubbard said. He's a known atheist and has his own section in "The Atheist's Bible". Where is the benefit in this man's words? Again, going off of Fez's posting history, he has no history of quoting nonbelievers or athesits and I have seen nothing of him on these boards to suggest that this anything more than a coincidence. Jesus was punished for our sins. Jesus suffered the full justice of God and it says in Isaiah 53 that the full punishment for our peace (reconciliation to God) was upon Jesus. He was punished for us, so that we would not have to be punished. The wages of sin is death, but Jesus died for us. He bore the curse and took those wages on our behalf and now offers us the free gift of eternal life. The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment? God's judgment for sin was hurled at Jesus on the cross. He was judged on our behalf. Judgment has already been meted out and Jesus drank every bitter drop of that cup. "All we like sheep have gone astray, but God has laid upon Him the sins of us all." (Is. 53:6). The word for "laid" in that verse is actually a rather violent word. Imagine standing under a third story window and someone dropping a 500 pound bag of sand from that window upon you. That is the image of the word in Hebrew. It is God violently dropping the full, crushing weight of our sin upon Jesus when He was on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak Posted June 10, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2011 I came back to thank you and Fresno Joe for a successful outcome of my being under the knife, so to speak. But here we go again: Quote Shiloh said "You have not studied Eternal Security but yet you feel you are qualified to sit in judgment on those who believe it as if we think this is a rose colored world where life is easy and we get a free pass on sin?" Why do you represent me and not bring in my word adequately studied. Is not adequately studying saying I havent studied at all?The end result is the same. You don't understand what you presume to criticize. If you understood it well enough to frame it properly and sought to disagree based on a thorough and correct understanding of the doctine, that would be different. But you have admitted that you really don't know what it is you are criticizing. I have tried numerous times to correctly frame the doctrine, but you are intent on relying on your inaccurate, incomplete understanding as the basis for your responses. Do not see how futile and irresponsible that is? Ok first of all we were discussing salvation not Eternal Security From that perspective I was asking my questions and part of my inadequate study (PROMTING my unaccepted apology) was your post #9 (very guarded writing ). That does obligate me to learn a possibly false doctrine inside and out. Further I dont think people that believe in Eternal Security are in full agreement. Did you know that Paul Stanley, a proponent of Eternal Security, writes that the servant who hid his talent and was condemned to darkness and was gnashing his teeth is still in heaven (according to Stanley)? Who knows you may agree with him? Quote Anyway since you were the advocate of Internal Security authority I focused on your arguments, first and took note of your replies.Uh, when did I ever say anything about "Internal Security?" My mistake, I meant Eternal. Yes, I make mistakes. Quote Also, I dont believe in many things you say such as a scripture in Hebrews about being grafted in. (your take on what that means)It means what it means. Being grafted in into Israel is the result of salvation. It is not a metaphor for salvation. Grafted in refers to participation within the community of faith. I think what I objected to was that you felt the people that were not fitted were merely chastised. Quote However, I will ask one more question before relying totally on research, ... Truly, truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of The Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks his blood has internal life and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:52-54 now is this part of Salvation or does this statement suppose you're already saved?Jesus was talking to Jews, not to Christians. In Jewish theology, eating and drinking were metaphors for the study of the Torah. The Torah was the spiritual "food" for the Jew. Jesus reflected this line of thinking when He said, "man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." But the Jews felt that it was this eating and drinking of the Law that brought eternal life. When Jesus referred to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He was declaring Himself to be greater than the Law of Moses and He alone could impart eternal life. A Jew of that day and age would have caught the unique spin on the metaphor. For someone to claim to be greater than the law of Moses and to claim that only by partaking of Him and not the Law of Moses could one gain eternal life, and then on top of that, to cliam personal power over death by saying that he had the power to raise people up in "the last day" (thus claiming to be God), was an out-of-this-world, radical claim for a Jew to make in that day and in that community. That is why the left Him and would not follow Him. What Jesus is saying is that there is no salvation apart from a genuine particpation in His life and Person. He is eternal life. Salvation is not a thing. Salvation is a Person. It is Christ Himself. {my bolding]That is the unique thing about Christianity. Christianity is Christ. No other religion can say that. One does not have to know Mohammed to be a good Muslim. One does not have to have a relationship with Buddha to be a good Buddhist. But Christianity is so wrapped up and inextricably linked to the Person of Jesus Christ, one's opinion of Christ will determine what they think of the Christian faith. Very good insight.... This was also part of Christs last supper was it not? And in terms of salvation, people partake of communion as sacrament because they believe they are partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ. And in your words can I draw the conclusion that, there is no salvation apart from a genuine participation in Christs life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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