LEGALISM

[justme7]

the issue of legalism is one that concerns me as well. when i was a new believer it almost turned me off all together.

while i do believe that we ought to obey the LORD in all things, i also know that each one of us fall terribly short. the Word asks us how we can judge another for not keeping the whole law, when we ourselves fall short as well. the Word also asks us who we are to judge anothers' servants. so often as believers we fall into being walk watchers. how is it that we feel confident enough to jurisdict others' behavior??

i do not believe that the opposite of legalism is liscence. it's simply not. that would be the same as saying the opposite of Pharisee is sinner. as believers we are made righteous by the blood of CHRIST alone. each one of us struggle with sin in both common and separate areas. so many of us struggle to look the part and harass others who may not. that is so wrong of us. better that our hearts be layed out before the LORD....better that we be broken and humble before HIM than that we have any confidence in our behavior. better also that we spread this Holy Gospel in love, teaching unbelievers that we are able to be honest with GOD, that HE meets us where we are at; that in our weakness HE is made strong. it's all HIM and none of us.

the legalistic approach is damaging to unbelievers and believers alike. the pharisees and high priests detested JESUS in part because of their legalism.

we want to recognize the LORD, not limit HIM with our laws. the Word tells us not to think beyond what is written so that we will not become puffed up against one another. this should speak to the heart of us all. why do we feel the need to pick apart every little behavior??? it is not Biblical.

all that just to say...i completely agree....this is a huge and ugly problem

[MrSealedEternal]

the issue of legalism is one that concerns me as well. when i was a new believer it almost turned me off all together.

while i do believe that we ought to obey the LORD in all things, i also know that each one of us fall terribly short. the Word asks us how we can judge another for not keeping the whole law, when we ourselves fall short as well. the Word also asks us who we are to judge anothers' servants. so often as believers we fall into being walk watchers. how is it that we feel confident enough to jurisdict others' behavior??

i do not believe that the opposite of legalism is liscence. it's simply not. that would be the same as saying the opposite of Pharisee is sinner. as believers we are made righteous by the blood of CHRIST alone. each one of us struggle with sin in both common and separate areas. so many of us struggle to look the part and harass others who may not. that is so wrong of us. better that our hearts be layed out before the LORD....better that we be broken and humble before HIM than that we have any confidence in our behavior. better also that we spread this Holy Gospel in love, teaching unbelievers that we are able to be honest with GOD, that HE meets us where we are at; that in our weakness HE is made strong. it's all HIM and none of us.

the legalistic approach is damaging to unbelievers and believers alike. the pharisees and high priests detested JESUS in part because of their legalism.

we want to recognize the LORD, not limit HIM with our laws. the Word tells us not to think beyond what is written so that we will not become puffed up against one another. this should speak to the heart of us all. why do we feel the need to pick apart every little behavior??? it is not Biblical.

all that just to say...i completely agree....this is a huge and ugly problem

The entire point of the law is that we all fall short. That isn't a reason to throw out the law. If you were turned off by someones alledged legalism, either they did not share God's commandments out of love to exhort you to make yourself a better Christian, or there was a problem with your heart that you didn't want correction.

Legalism is an unbiblical term, and each person defines it differently. According to the dictionary, it means to adhere strongly to God's moral laws, which every Christian should consider a virtue. It is the attitude of the Pharisees which caused them to sin, and not the fact that they tried too hard to adhere to God's commands. They didn't love God, and weren't keeping His laws to please Him. They were keeping them to impress men, and to glorify themselves.

Often Christians commit the same error, and they become guilty of the same sin as the Pharasees. If we're not exhorting others out of love for them and God, then we would be better off keeping our comments to ourselves. If we are doing it in order to build each other up as believers, or to bring an unbeliever under conviction and repentence, then it is unfair to label that person as a "legalist" in order to silence them.

Proverbs 27:5-6 Better is open rebuke Than love that is concealed. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.

Proverbs 28:23 He who rebukes a man will afterward find more favor Than he who flatters with the tongue.

John 14:15-26 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

Mr SE

[apothanein kerdos]

SE, the problem is often that we make things God's law that aren't really God's law. Forbidding people tolisten to rock music, drink alcohol (such as wine), watch all forms of TV....things of this nature. That is when legalism occurs, when scripture never outright forbids it yet we do.

[Kabowd]

SE, the problem is often that we make things God's law that aren't really God's law. Forbidding people tolisten to rock music, drink alcohol (such as wine), watch all forms of TV....things of this nature. That is when legalism occurs, when scripture never outright forbids it yet we do.

Exactly

SE,

By this definition, both Jesus Christ and Paul were both legalists. The Bible teaches that Christians should adhere to it's moral codes and laws, and there is nowhere in scripture where it says that it is wrong to adhere to moral codes and laws. It is therefore the anti-legalists who are rebelling against God's commandments and not the alleged legalists.

Then why does John say this:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (1:17)

And why did Paul himself emphasize grace so much in his teaching? Why did he warn other believers about being deceived into strict adherence to the law (Galatians 3), and why did he furthermore warn believers against demanding that other believers adhere to their same convictions?

"Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:4).... "But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God" (Romans 14:10).

The term "strict adherence" in and of itself connotates the absence of grace. Back-up the strawman wagon here. I'm not advocating that we should disobey or that Christ ever said we should not obey. That's ridiculous, and I believe that most people understand where I'm coming from on this. As I've stated numerous times, I'm not talking about obedience/disobedience to God. I'm talking about disputable matters. Apparently you've never read Romans 14.

Jesus Christ was absolutely for adhering to His own moral laws. His condemnation of the Pharisees was not that they were too "godly", and tried to hard to reprove, rebuke, and exhort others to be faithful to His commandments. Their problem was that they were hypocrites who used to law to present themselves as being holier than thou and missing the spirit of the laws, by attacking others who missed a letter in the law. Christians can be guilty of that if our motives are wrong, but that is not to say that we shouldn't exhort each other to obey Him out of concern for one another. God has rules, and Christians are obligated to reprove, rebuke and exhort one another to adhere to them.

You do not show grace to an unbeliever by tossing out God's commandments either. God's grace is His forgiveness of us despite the fact that we break His laws, but it does not mean ignoring His laws altogether. We should never tell an unbeliever that God finds it acceptable to rebel against Him, but should rather tell them that they can change their mind about their sin, and be forgiven for it through Jesus Christ. God uses His law as His way to lead us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Romans 7:6-12 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin {is} dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

*sigh* You're arguing for no reason. Again, I'm not advocating that we should disobey God's commands! I'M TALKING ABOUT DISPUTABLE MATTERS.

The anti-legalists have a double standard whereby they are allowed to say that it is fine to do something, but someone who disagrees and believes it to be sin is not allowed to hold that view.

Then you must believe Paul was an anti-legalist correct? Because what you are arguing against is the very essence of Romans 14.

The anti-legalist can say it is fine to buy children books about witchcraft despite the fact that scripture expressly condemns this practice, but if someone tries to warn people against it, then they are labeled a legalist. This is an example of the word "legalist" being used to silence those who preach a Biblical doctrine that another doesn't like, but can't defend. It's an easy way to try to discredit someone without having to make a case against what they're saying.

Saying something is unwise (i.e., buying a child a book about witchcraft) and calling it a sin, are two different things. We can educate people, share with them what our convictions are, and share God's word with them (regarding personal convictions like this), but unless you can produce a Scripture which explicitly calls it a sin, then you are adding to God's Word. Which is a sin. AGAIN, what I'm saying is that in DISPUTABLE MATTERS, we should offer GRACE to one another....as the Holy Spirit might convict us each differently in those things.

What is essentially being implied is that there can be no standards, and if you try to maintain any, you're the one who is in error. It is in fact a sin to make lawful that which scripture condemns, so in this case it is the anti-legalists who are guilty of licentiousness.

Preaching the gospel is by definition, telling people that they are lawbreakers. That is how you show people that they need God's grace. To tell people that it is acceptable to "do what thou wilt" and God will still save you is unbiblical, and the opposite of the gospel. The gospel is to warn people that they are "headed to Hell." If they are not headed to Hell, then there is no need for a gospel. Repentance occurs when one realizes that they are a criminal in God's eyes and need a Savior.

Christians should want to adhere to God's moral laws, because strict adherence to His commandments is how we show our love for Him.

John 14:15-26 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Licentiousness is a denial of His Lordship, and is therefore a destructive message.

Jude 1:3-4 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Gah...I do not know how to state this more clearly...so I'll put it in caps and bold so you get it: I'M NOT ADVOCATIONG DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMANDS. As the above post (by apothanein) reiterates....the problem is when people like you (who clearly advocate and defend legalism) take it upon yourselves to determine what is a command of God. Paul teaches us in Romans 14 (I encourage you to read it), we are given grace and freedom to have differing convictions on matters that are not written as law. It is sin for "meat eaters" to judge "non meat eaters" and vice versa. *That* is what I'm against....as was Paul and as was Christ.

[MrSealedEternal]

SE,

By this definition, both Jesus Christ and Paul were both legalists. The Bible teaches that Christians should adhere to it's moral codes and laws, and there is nowhere in scripture where it says that it is wrong to adhere to moral codes and laws. It is therefore the anti-legalists who are rebelling against God's commandments and not the alleged legalists.

Then why does John say this:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (1:17)

I don't think you understand what God's grace is. Grace is God's free gift to us of eternal life, despite the fact that we break His laws and deserve to spend eternity in Hell for it. That doesn't however mean that His laws don't apply anymore, and that we now have a license to "do as thou wilt."

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

(Quote Tess)

And why did Paul himself emphasize grace so much in his teaching? Why did he warn other believers about being deceived into strict adherence to the law (Galatians 3), and why did he furthermore warn believers against demanding that other believers adhere to their same convictions?

You're totally misapplying the Word of God, and turning His grace into licentiousness. The Book of Galatians was refuting the idea of the Judaizers that said that Gentiles needed to convert to Judaism, and adhere to the Moseic ceremonial laws, which Christ was the fulfillment of.

Col 2:13-17 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a {mere} shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Jesus didn't do away with His law through His atonement. He fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the Moseic law, and fulfilled the penalty of the moral aspects of the law, but His moral laws are still eternal and should be adhered to by anyone who regards Him as Lord.

(Quote Tess)

Then you must believe Paul was an anti-legalist correct? Because what you are arguing against is the very essence of Romans 14.

Romans 14 is about dietary laws, and I've never spoken on dietary laws. You like to claim that I'm making a straw man argument when I'm not, but this is a true straw man argument.

(Quote TESS)

*sigh* You're arguing for no reason. Again, I'm not advocating that we should disobey God's commands! I'M TALKING ABOUT DISPUTABLE MATTERS.

If something is disputable, then all sides should have an equal right to make their case, which has been my point all along. You're taking it upon yourself to determine what sins a person can take a stand against, and exhort other's to do the same. To label those who interpret scriptural principles and apply them, as "legalists", is an attempt to discredit someone because you don't like their position. The Bible does not condemn taking a stand on moral issues based on Biblical principles anywhere in it's pages. If you disagree with a person's interpretation of a biblical principle, then the proper Christian response is to show from scripture that the person is wrong. To simply start name calling because you don't like someone's position, is simply unbiblical and unchristian.

Mr SE

[Kabowd]

You're accusing me of misunderstanding God's grace? You believe Romans 14 is in reference to dietary laws only?

[MrSealedEternal]

You're accusing me of misunderstanding God's grace? You believe Romans 14 is in reference to dietary laws only?

Your assertions about grace suggested that it somehow eliminates God's moral laws, which is not what grace is.

(Quote TESS)

Then why does John say this:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (1:17)

And why did Paul himself emphasize grace so much in his teaching? Why did he warn other believers about being deceived into strict adherence to the law (Galatians 3), and why did he furthermore warn believers against demanding that other believers adhere to their same convictions?

God's Word never tells us not to adhere to His moral laws. That's not what "grace" means at all. Grace means that God saves us despite the fact that we are wretched lowlife sinners. It doesn't mean however that we are free to "do as thou wilt," and be as wretched as we wish. That's called licentiousness, and is condemned in scripture. It is a virtue to strictly adhere to God's law. It is only sinful when it is done with sinful motives, as was the case with the Pharisees.

Galatians 3 is written to refute the idea that Christians are required to keep the Jewish ceremonial laws, when Christ had already fulfilled them. The problem wasn't that they were adhering to God's commands, but rather that they were adding to the gospel by telling others that if they didn't become circumcised and convert to Judaism they would not be saved. This was adding a law of God, a bondage that He specifically had told the apostles is not necessary. When God specifically says something is lawful, then it is sin to forbid it.

Romans 14 is about the same basic topic. It is primarily about the differences in the traditions of Jews and Gentiles, and whether Gentiles should be required to keep the Jewish ceremonies, or if Gentiles should judge Jews who do, and is primarily in regard to dietary laws and observance of feasts and Sabbaths. The Word of God says that we shouldn't judge people one way or the other on that issue, and I certainly never have. The only time I do, is when Sabbath Keepers commit the error of the Judaizers and try to bring people under the ceremonial law.

Mr SE

[Kabowd]

You're accusing me of misunderstanding God's grace? You believe Romans 14 is in reference to dietary laws only?

Your assertions about grace suggested that it somehow eliminates God's moral laws, which is not what grace is.

(Quote TESS)

Then why does John say this:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (1:17)

And why did Paul himself emphasize grace so much in his teaching? Why did he warn other believers about being deceived into strict adherence to the law (Galatians 3), and why did he furthermore warn believers against demanding that other believers adhere to their same convictions?

God's Word never tells us not to adhere to His moral laws. That's not what "grace" means at all. Grace means that God saves us despite the fact that we are wretched lowlife sinners. It doesn't mean however that we are free to "do as thou wilt," and be as wretched as we wish. That's called licentiousness, and is condemned in scripture. It is a virtue to strictly adhere to God's law. It is only sinful when it is done with sinful motives, as was the case with the Pharisees.

Galatians 3 is written to refute the idea that Christians are required to keep the Jewish ceremonial laws, when Christ had already fulfilled them. The problem wasn't that they were adhering to God's commands, but rather that they were adding to the gospel by telling others that if they didn't become circumcised and convert to Judaism they would not be saved. This was adding a law of God, a bondage that He specifically had told the apostles is not necessary. When God specifically says something is lawful, then it is sin to forbid it.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? Never in ANYTHING I've posted in here have I even hinted that we have license to sin! That is far, far, far from what I am saying. In addition, I have never argued that we are free to disobey God's laws (moral or any).

Considering you keep misinterpreting what I'm saying (or purposefully twisting my words - I'm not sure which) I think continuing to try and discuss it with you is futile.

Romans 14 is about the same basic topic. It is primarily about the differences in the traditions of Jews and Gentiles, and whether Gentiles should be required to keep the Jewish ceremonies, or if Gentiles should judge Jews who do, and is primarily in regard to dietary laws and observance of feasts and Sabbaths. The Word of God says that we shouldn't judge people one way or the other on that issue, and I certainly never have. The only time I do, is when Sabbath Keepers commit the error of the Judaizers and try to bring people under the ceremonial law.

Mr SE

That is the most limited and narrow view of Romans 14 that I have ever read, frankly. Apparently you believe that this chapter is in regards to Jewish traditions only? It doesn't apply to any other issues? Then what are "disputable matters"?

[justme7]

I am bumping this because I am extremely disturbed by what I"m seeing on these boards lately. What began with the Halloween topic, has now spread all over the place. We are now being told what we should and should not own as toys, what we should and should not listen to, what we should and should not watch, what we should and should not read...etc...etc....etc.

Do you guys not see the yoke of slavery this is becoming? Now, I happen to agree that there are certain books, music, etc...that we should be dicerning about. I have that conviction for myself. BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT I HAVE THE RIGHT TO PLACE THAT CONVICTION ONTO SOMEONE ELSE.

Guys...we're missing the mark! I have seen numerous threads go on for pages about things that simply should be up to each individual to discern for themselves. It's one thing if I am asked my opinion about Harry Potter, or if I'm asked why I do not read them...it's entirely another for me to be preaching to everyone I see that it's wrong for them too! This does not show grace, love or patience at all.

We would be better off spending time teaching those we "perceive to be weaker" about growing in grace, getting in the Word, serving others and those things, than telling them all the things they should not be doing.

I posted these things before in another topic but I think it's valid to post them here:

If you really want to promote freedom to those you perceive to be "ensnared", let me give you a few tips:

1. Avoid calling them evil, satanists, demon-possessed, unsaved, prideful, etc, etc..

2. Seek the Holy Spirit's guidance about the best time and place to offer the truth.

3. If a person isn't ready to hear what you have to say, wait. What's the hurry? God is in control. Everything happens in due time.

4. Avoid repeating yourself. This is not only annoying, but it comes across like nagging and condemnation.

5. Pray more than you talk. Sometimes I think ppl tend to forget that the Holy Spirit is the best teacher. You can say the most eloquent thing and be very convincing, but if it lacks the power of the Holy Spirit, if it lacks love...it's like a loud, annoying sound...even painful to hear.

I've said this a thousand times, but it's worth repeating again: Encourage those weaker in the faith to grow closer to the Lord, challenge them to get into God's Word and listen to the Holy Spirit for themselves. Don't try to be the Holy Spirit for them.

~Kindness leads to repentance. (Romans 2:4)

~Love compels obedience. (John 14:15)

~Grace should be combined with truth. (John 1:17;2 Peter 3:18)

~It's the Holy Spirit's job to convict. (I Corinthians 2:12-13)

By hammering ppl with scriptures and forcing your convictions on others, you contradict all of the scriptural statements above.

No one is disagreeing that we should all live in obedience to Christ, geeze. The problem is that you perceive "disputable matters" to be law, many of the rest of us perceive them as matters of personal conviction. If God has convicted you not to celebrate Halloween, then it would be sin for you to do so and it's commendable for you to hold to that conviction. However, you cross the line whenever you begin to define what is sin for someone else.

"And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17

Let's stop beating ppl over the head about disputable matters and stop labeling what is sin for others. We should spend far more time talking about the goodness of God than we do the darkness of the world.

right on sister!!!!!!!

[justme7]

oops!

Edited January 2, 2006 by justme7