Nicks Girl Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 669 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/04/1986 Share Posted October 9, 2004 *agreed* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2004 First I don't care if someone judges me because I know they aren't my judge. So I am not taking any of this personally, because though most of you, in the nicest way, think I am against God's word and a false teacher. SOOO I will bow out. I refuse to defend myself to any of you. I think we have really lost sight of a Holy Discussion. I am so tired ofd explaining and reexplaining over and over again. I am done. I am just tired of the same old argument, "It goes against God's Word!" Well you have shown me no more than 4 or 5 scriptures pertaining to this, and as I studied them in context, praying for discernment, I am comfortable with my belief. To compare me to a gay person, is just, well I can't find words strong enough. I am done. Have a wonderful life all of you. And I pray that God will open your mind and soften your heart. Again, Shelby, it's terrible to refute a theological finding just because it only has 3 or 4 scriptures behind it. If this were the case, the entire doctrine of the Trinity would collapse as there are only two or three verses that actually pertain to it. Likewise, many doctrines within the Christian faith would be obliterated with this idea. It's not that we draw theology from one scripture. We look at many scriptures and get the idea. You can say you've prayed over the scripture, but I will be blunt and say you are simply being hard headed. God does not go against His Word. Also, no one is comparing you to a "gay person". We're simply saying that the logic you use to discount the interpreation of scriptures we offer leaves open justification for a homosexual to use them as well, or an adulterer, or anyone else. If we are able to say, "Regardless of what scripture says, I feel God is calling me" and offer up absolutely no alternative interpretation to the scriptures, then we leave open this indefensible gap in which anyone can now use this excuse. I was saying that I believe those scriptures address demeanor and behavior more than address "requirements" in ministry positions. Please re read my post, right now, I can think of no better way to re word it. The problem with this is that it would take us out of the context of 1 Timothy. Paul works his way from avoiding false teachers, to propert attire of women, and then to how authority should be handled. What Paul is teaching is women should be submissive in church and not hold authority over a man. It's very black and white and to this date I have yet to see any biblical arguementation around it. It usually resorts to unprovable historical context or feelings/callings. How am I not under submission to my husband if he agrees, encourages, and wants this too? (just for clarification, I am not ordained by our church, I did not go to seminary (yet, my husband and I plan on going together and becoming co-pastors as is usual in our church) but I and another man at our church preach on Sundays during our breakfast program (which anyone is welcome to and we get a lot of homeless or transient people) and then he leads a prayer circle for men and I for women. See, to me, this doesn't appear as if though you have authority over men. To me it appears you are a pastor that teaches and the only authority you hold is over women. If that is the case, there is no biblical arguement against it. Now, if you hold authority over men, then yes, I have a problem. I agree that women need to lead a life in which they (we, lol) practice modesty, discretion, non-dispruptive, etc. I don't see this as meaning they cannot hold positions within the church, only that it should not be about causing a fuss and for purposes of self-glorification and upheavel within the body. I think this is where you begin to mix my beliefs with a legalistic belief. Often times people here us teaching against female authority and they think we're banning women from speaking completely. My beliefs, according to the Bible, are as follows: * Women are not to hold authority over a man within the church * Women should not be the final human authority within the church * Women should never be in a position to mentor (teach on a close basis) a man or a group of men Other than that, I'm all for women having authority in certain areas (and would prefer them to), teaching, preaching, ect. Now, again, you need to look at the rest of the verse to get this. Simply drawing this conclusion off of one thing I said is not a good way to go about it. This is apples to oranges. Scripture is clear that those in ministry need to be above reproach. A lesbian or gay is living a lifestyle of deliberate sin, not above reproach at all. Being a woman does not automatically mean you are deliberately living in sin. We recognize it, however the same thought process that is presented could be used by anyone living in sin. If we disregard scripture and do not offer a counter definition that holds water when examined and simply say we are called and go on our way, then this leaves justification for homosexuals, adulterers, ect to go into the ministry and be justified in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keslc Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 745 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1976 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Super Jew, Thank you for your response! QUOTEÂ This is apples to oranges. Scripture is clear that those in ministry need to be above reproach. A lesbian or gay is living a lifestyle of deliberate sin, not above reproach at all. Being a woman does not automatically mean you are deliberately living in sin. We recognize it, however the same thought process that is presented could be used by anyone living in sin. If we disregard scripture and do not offer a counter definition that holds water when examined and simply say we are called and go on our way, then this leaves justification for homosexuals, adulterers, ect to go into the ministry and be justified in doing so. however, I'm not quite following what you are saying here. (it's me, not you, lol) I don't see how an adulterer or homosexual can be justified ever (except after repentance, maybe) in holding a ministry position. I probably just not getting what you mean. Also, regarding this.... QUOTEÂ How am I not under submission to my husband if he agrees, encourages, and wants this too? (just for clarification, I am not ordained by our church, I did not go to seminary (yet, my husband and I plan on going together and becoming co-pastors as is usual in our church) but I and another man at our church preach on Sundays during our breakfast program (which anyone is welcome to and we get a lot of homeless or transient people) and then he leads a prayer circle for men and I for women. See, to me, this doesn't appear as if though you have authority over men. To me it appears you are a pastor that teaches and the only authority you hold is over women. If that is the case, there is no biblical arguement against it. Now, if you hold authority over men, then yes, I have a problem. The underlined statement...what of this? In our church, husbands and wives attend seminary together and are both ordained. Then they are sent to pastor a church together. I agree that I should never hold a position in which I am mentoring or discpling a man or group of men (I think there are issues in which men and women should not discuss with people of the opposite sex unless they are married to that person, and there are too many issues of safety, appearances, temptations, etc.) However, I may be in a position to make decisions regarding the church, etc. I also would still be under submission to my husband in our pastoral roles as well as our marriage. Just curious of your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finding God (angel) Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 372 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/20/1990 Share Posted October 9, 2004 i haven't read all the posts to this issue but I am just putting what I think.If a woman hears God tell them they need to be a pastor of a church and they do well that shows a lot.Some of the women pastors may felt or heard God telling them this is their job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted October 9, 2004 i haven't read all the posts to this issue but I am just putting what I think.If a woman hears God tell them they need to be a pastor of a church and they do well that shows a lot.Some of the women pastors may felt or heard God telling them this is their job Angel, When god speaks to you He will never, not ever, contradict Himself. Just because someone thinks that God spoke to them does not mean that He did. Joseph Smith(mormons) thought God spoke to him, Muhammed(Islam) thought God spoke to him. Find out what God has already said and you will know if He is speaking to you. What He has already said is written down in the Bible. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2004 Ah kelsc, I found your post quite refreshing however, I'm not quite following what you are saying here. (it's me, not you, lol) I don't see how an adulterer or homosexual can be justified ever (except after repentance, maybe) in holding a ministry position. I probably just not getting what you mean. Well, I'm not saying justified in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of man. The paradigm often presented to justify women being in authority over men is that scripture is taken out of context (yet they never substantiate how) and that they know God is calling them to be a pastor. It all looks fine on the surface, but, well, take this as an example: "Yes, I'm a homosexual. The Bible doesn't talk against homosexuality, the scriptures people list are taken out of context and were meant for the culture of the day. I know God is calling me to be a minister." So it's the same logic. The paradigm Shelby used (and I'm not picking on shelby, just showing the problems with the way of thinking) could easily be used to justify others to become pastors who aren't qualified. The underlined statement...what of this? In our church, husbands and wives attend seminary together and are both ordained. Then they are sent to pastor a church together. I agree that I should never hold a position in which I am mentoring or discpling a man or group of men (I think there are issues in which men and women should not discuss with people of the opposite sex unless they are married to that person, and there are too many issues of safety, appearances, temptations, etc.) However, I may be in a position to make decisions regarding the church, etc. I also would still be under submission to my husband in our pastoral roles as well as our marriage. Just curious of your thoughts. Not only do I think it's okay, I think it should be mandatory for husband and wife to attend seminary together and be co-pastors. Obviously the male would have the final authority (as in your case), but there is biblically nothing wrong with what you presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllforJesustheLord Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 557 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/21/1976 Share Posted October 9, 2004 1 Timothy 2:11-15 "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." This scripture definately means in demeanor, and action, which also means words. That is what Silence is, what quietness is. Here is another scripture which we can relate to understanding this scripture more. 1 Cor. 14:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2004 1 Timothy 2:11-15 "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." This scripture definately means in demeanor, and action, which also means words. That is what Silence is, what quietness is. It's also refering to church authority. He does not allow a woman to teach (mentor in a close relationship) or hold authority over a man. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServingHim Posted October 10, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2004 Jesus said - Matthew 28:18-20 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. I guess I fail to see where this is exclusive to males. Jesus gave this order to every believer....man and woman alike. where does it say man and women alike. You are adding to scripture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServingHim Posted October 10, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2004 is there ANY example of ANY woman in a teaching AUTHORITY position in scripture? If so, where is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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