God and Stephen Hawking

[enoob57]

We have no idea of how long they were in the garden... I believe it were mere days but scripture is silent - but there is no need to invent science (that there was some kind of global wide, all year round temperate climate) to cover for the fact that they were naked.

Well that is why it is a personal walk in His Word in the many wonders that are for searching out!

Huh? What do you mean about healthy lifestyles? As Viole suggests, a canopy is not even required AFTER the flood to be naked or close to it in the sun.

Sun is a well documented fact of harmful affects with the skin... I had a Basil cell removed from my face and it was due to overexposure to portions of sun rays.

Yes... they did use observational language, poetic language and even their flawed understanding of the sky and atmosphere as a vehicle to communicate truth about God... but again this isn't a science book and should never be read that way. There is no need to invent canopy theory to scientifically validate a non scientific account. The crux of the story is about God dealing with man's sin, not about the water cycle. Making it about the water cycle perverts the true focus of the scripture.

The true focus of Genesis is the beginnings and the great cost of sin and that resulting not only with man but also with creation itself!

Rom 8:22

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

KJV

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

I guess children are not different now than in the past. They do not deserve to die now as they did not deserve to die in the past. Very small children, like several weeks old, do not show anything close to sin, so they definitely do not deserve to die. But if you consider a "sinful" child, say a couple years old, do you think he will go to hell if he is killed by a car tomorrow? If not, why not, if the boy is already sinful?

*snip*

And what about very small children who die very young, before they are even able to recognize Jesus. Will they go to hell or to heaven? In both cases they will have a strong disadvantage/advantage compared with people who grow old and are able to actually exercise their free will.

It is the view of many Christians that children are held in innocence until they are able to understand and make a decision for or against Christ. It is not a case of God deciding that little children deserved to die. You are trying to insert motives and values that are not really germain to the issue. The issue is the overt perversion of man. Inncoents often end up paying the price for the stupidity of others. The refusal to believe on behalf the majority ended up dooming the innocent who were either too young or too infirmed to make that choice. If you have a young child in a car with you and you are driving while drunk and end up having an accident that kills the child. The child died because of the stupdity of drunk driving. Those who mocked Noah probably led their children to disbelieve Noah's preaching as well. They dragged their children into the pit with them because of their stupidity.

Concerning equal opportunities, I do not agree with your position. Imagine a child born in an aboriginal family 500 years ago. No bible, no mention of Jesus, no Adam and Eve, nothing that could bring her to believe in Christianity. Will this womanl burn in hell after she grew old and died? Don't you have an advantage by being brought up in a Christian environment?

The problem with that is that it assumes that such people will be unfairly judged because of they did not have access to a Boible or anything Christian. That is not the case. The Bible teaches that there is enough information in the natural world to bring a person to the knowledge of a creator and from there, if they are willing to seek Him, they will find Him through special revelation (the Bible). The point is that they are not judged on the basis of what they did not hear or know. They are being judged on the basis of the information that was available to them which they chose to ignore.

For me the salvation doctrine is the most troubling characteristic of Christianity (and all creeds that assume a punishment/reward policy after death). Much more difficult than the problem of evil, for instance. How we spend eternity is arguably the most important issue for us, and I find it puzzling that the doctrine contains elements of unfairness and is, in my opinion, incomplete

The reason it is troubling for you is that you don't understand it. You are trying to plug incorrect assumptions and false values into the Bible and they don't make sense. They don't make sense because you are operating from false premises and incorrect assumptions from the start. As stated earlier, you are not intellectually equipped to criticize the Bible or Christian doctrine. You probably parrotting the same ignorance-laden drivel that you have gotten from other atheists who are as equally incompetent as you are in biblical matters.

[JustinM]

You seem to to think that death is a punishment from God, but it's not, it's the result of sin. The punishment of death is a manmade idea. Punishment comes after death. So, when children die, they are innocent and can not punished. They get to spend eternity in Heaven, whereas, if humanity continued to live and sin as it did before the flood, they would have grown up in that sin and been eternally condemned. I see it as a tremendous act of mercy on God's part, not only to preserve life on Earth, but to give the innocent a chance to be with Him.

As for animals, they have their place in this world, just like the dung beetles, earthworms, trees, seaweed etc. It's hardly a tragedy that so many of them died in the flood, since they were preserved as a species and have multiplied since then, just like they were commanded to do.

Please tell me what is more tragic. An innocent child dying and going to Heaven, or that same child growing up becoming corrupted by sin, dying then punished by being eternally separated from God?

You start with the premise that all people are good, which is the opposite of what we know to be true. People are wicked, it is something we inherited from our ancestors, without His mercy, we are lost to the world and our wickedness.

But, when we invite Christ into our life, acknowledge that we are hopeless, admit that He sacrificed His life for our salvation, we become new, perfect beings. Spiritually, our souls have been cleansed and purified and holy enough to enter Heaven, a place where sin and corruption cannot exist.

Darkness cannot exist in the presence of light. The same goes with Holiness and Sin.

[JustinM]

The problem with that is that it assumes that such people will be unfairly judged because of they did not have access to a Boible or anything Christian. That is not the case. The Bible teaches that there is enough information in the natural world to bring a person to the knowledge of a creator and from there, if they are willing to seek Him, they will find Him through special revelation (the Bible). The point is that they are not judged on the basis of what they did not hear or know. They are being judged on the basis of the information that was available to them which they chose to ignore.

And how does this information look like? How can an Australian aborigen (for instance), who lived before the Europeans landed there, go from living in the wilderness to "Jesus is my savior"? Where is it written? And how can he see it? He never heard of Jesus, he will never see a Bible or any other book. He does not even know that there is a Middle East. He has no clue about Genesis, Adam and Eve or any of the other tenets of Christianity.

What kind of information was available to him that he chose to ignore?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14)

You keep going back to Australia is though it is the most remote/isolated place on the Planet and has always been. If, like many people believe, there was only 1 Continent prior to the Flood, it would be possible for Noah's warning to reach every person, it would be possible for a pair of every kind of animal to migrate to the Ark. Try reading the bible more, it will help you to understand our theories better. It will take more than scientific theories to change our minds. In our view, the Theory of Relativity has the just as much merit as the Theory of Creationism.

[Guest]

Open! Open! Open!

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47

And Know Truth~!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

____________

_________

______

___

The problem with that is that it assumes that such people will be unfairly judged because of they did not have access to a Bible or anything Christian. That is not the case. The Bible teaches that there is enough information in the natural world to bring a person to the knowledge of a creator and from there, if they are willing to seek Him, they will find Him through special revelation (the Bible). The point is that they are not judged on the basis of what they did not hear or know. They are being judged on the basis of the information that was available to them which they chose to ignore.

And how does this information look like? How can an Australian aborigen (for instance), who lived before the Europeans landed there, go from living in the wilderness to "Jesus is my savior"? Where is it written? And how can he see it? He never heard of Jesus, he will never see a Bible or any other book. He does not even know that there is a Middle East. He has no clue about Genesis, Adam and Eve or any of the other tenets of Christianity.

What kind of information was available to him that he chose to ignore?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14)

The LORD Our God Is Full Of Mercy And Grace

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:21-23

And The Knowledge Of Him Is Available To All Mankind

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psalms 19:1-3

And If You Know His Love You Already Know All Kids Are Cherished By Him

That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? Ezekiel 16:21

Yet Most Folk Even The Wise Grow Indifferent To His Love

The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:9

Choosing To Follow Philosophies And Religions

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Isaiah 29:13

Rejecting Daddy's Love

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11

Heedlessly

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

____________

_________

______

___

What Kind Of Love Is This?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

And Whatever Could A Woman Or A Man Give For Such A Priceless Treasure?

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

____________

_________

______

___

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Nakosis]

Please tell me what is more tragic. An innocent child dying and going to Heaven, or that same child growing up becoming corrupted by sin, dying then punished by being eternally separated from God?

Sorry, but what you say is morally questionable, at least according to my atheistic morality. You might find it a good idea to accept children death so that they have a safe eternal life, but I hope I do not offend anyone by disagreeing. I actually prefer to see children getting older, silly me. If you want to optimize salvation rate, according to your logic, it would be better to kill all children before they get old enough to risk their eternal life, don't you think so?

Ciao

- viole

I don't think you'll find a standard among the various individuals/groups for morality in the sense of right and wrong actions.

I suspect God has little concern for our individual concepts of morality.

I kind of know what is right for me, I don't know what is right for you and I'm not going to pretend to know what is right for God.

I suspect you may find to necessary at some point to forgive God for his actions towards man. I suspect God's purpose is for the overall benefit of man. Not necessarily for the benefit of any one individual. Whether you believe or not, I think this is clearly shown by the Bible. I don't think you can separate the bad from the good and claim God had no hand in it.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Nakosis

[Nakosis]

Of course, the previous posts show empirically that we can have very contrasting ideas about right or wrong. This puts a dent on the idea that we derive the same morality from a common external entity. It can be argued that my refusal to accept the death of young conscious beings is wrong, but this is how I feel. It is not a question of who is right or wrong, really; the very fact that I disagree, with my heart (not my logic), shows that I have a different morality. If you want to prove God by showing that we all share the same morality, that will not work in this case. You can say that my morality is flawed because it contradicts God, but, in this case, we are just begging the question by assuming God's existence in the premise.

Which is fine? In that I think we are in agreement on this point.

I cannot forgive an entity, who I don't believe He exists, and if He existed, who am I to criticize His judgement?

Of course, if God does exist, I expect you'll find out in the course of time. Then I'll say I told you so...

Just kidding.

And what do you mean with overall benefit of man? Can you give it in percentage?

IDK maybe 100%, maybe less then 1%. I suspect every soul has the same chance. Maybe up to them. Up to you. Not now but when you know/understand the choice you make. It depends on the quality of your spirit. I think we know what is asked. Love, compassion, charity, forgiveness.

If God is omnipotent, then He should care for all humans, none excluded; otherwise I really do not see the cosmic purpose of this exercise. We are so used to see meaning in God that we forget what that really means. Is the meaning to be saved and spend the rest of eternity in Heaven? And then? Even if were saved, I am not sure I would enjoy all eternity in this state of bliss. And I cannot exclude that I then re-ask the same question. Was this the meaning in life? Will I have the choice to get something different? Can I terminate my existence if I wish? Am I still free to sin or to have sinful thoughts? If not, then I don't think I am interested. I will not be much different from a robot without freedom, or, at least, an illusion of it.

I don't know the answers to those questions. Not until we get there. I suspect what will happen we be according to the choices you make except you will know the truth. Up to you what you decide to do with with that knowledge.

If you end up in some concept of hell or non-existence it because that is what you wanted. Right now you learn.

You can choose sin would require you to give up that knowledge. It will require you to give up Eden again, like Adam. You'll have to go through this all over again. Who knows, maybe you'll find you liked it the last time around. God cares enough to give people what they want, even if they want sin. However sin separates you from God. Separates you from the truth. May end up leaving you in hell, but if that is what you want.

You see the tragedy of material loss. Nothing is lost. Everything will be reclaimed.

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem with that is that it assumes that such people will be unfairly judged because of they did not have access to a Boible or anything Christian. That is not the case. The Bible teaches that there is enough information in the natural world to bring a person to the knowledge of a creator and from there, if they are willing to seek Him, they will find Him through special revelation (the Bible). The point is that they are not judged on the basis of what they did not hear or know. They are being judged on the basis of the information that was available to them which they chose to ignore.

And how does this information look like? How can an Australian aborigen (for instance), who lived before the Europeans landed there, go from living in the wilderness to "Jesus is my savior"? Where is it written? And how can he see it? He never heard of Jesus, he will never see a Bible or any other book. He does not even know that there is a Middle East. He has no clue about Genesis, Adam and Eve or any of the other tenets of Christianity.

What kind of information was available to him that he chose to ignore?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14)

That is why God provided General Revelation (nature) to testify of him.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Rom 1:18-20)

Nature does not lead directly to a knowledge of Christ; that has been pointed out to you before. But it does lead to the knowledge of a creator. Nature testifies of Him. And those who pay attention to that testimony and seek the Creator, will find Him. God will make sure they find Him. If you take a step toward God, He takes a step toward you, so to speak. God will make sure that those who seek Him will hear of Him and have the choice to embrace or reject Him when they find Him.

It is like a man who is lost in the pitch black darkness of a cave. If he sees a pinhole of light, he needs to head toward that that light. If he ignores it, he is doomed to be potentially lost for a very long time. Nature is like that pinhole of light that points the way to freedom. If one is not interested in finding God, then they will live as they choose and be judged by God for that choice.

[JustinM]

The meaning and purpose of life is to serve your fellow man with charity and love. The purpose of human life, is to serve God.

Why do satanists worship satan?

Why do pagans worship nature?

Why do people worship people?

Why do idolators worship idols?

Why do Christians and Jews worship YHWH?

It is in every one's nature to worship something. Some atheists are transhumanists, and believe that man can become a god if he's gained enough knowledge. Some atheists worship themselves or their achievements or someone else and their achievements.

Why does hope exist? Why do people embrace hope, when there is nothing to hope for? It is in our nature to do so.

You can never fully understand the Judeo-Christian faith, if you cannot acknowledge the existence of God. Everything we believe in begins with that. Once that door is open, everything else we do makes perfect sense.

[JustinM]

quote viole : "Sorry, but what you say is morally questionable, at least according to my atheistic morality."

Of course it would be questionable to you, since you believe there is no where to go after life here. But, life on Earth isn't too great is it? In fact, for most of the world it is a pretty miserable existence.

In your views, is this the best that nature can come up with? Pain and misery for any and all things that exist here? You would think, that in the billions of years it took life to evolve, that the Earth would have found a way to overcome all that. Why does the Earth kill its inhabitants? What purpose does that serve? If you believe that life evolved to produce more life, then why hasn't life evolved beyond death? It seems that nature is at war with itself, it wants to survive, but can't stop harming itself either.

We, on the other hand, believe that there is a much better place than here. God has communicated with His people for thousands of years, He has told us what He expects from us, He has told us the consequences of not living up to those expectations. He has even come up with an explanation as to why the Earth is so hostile to life on it. He also also told us of a much better place than here.

Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

If left unattended, the Earth will consume itself and everything on it. It would seem that evolution will have the same conclusion as creationism.

In a zero sum game, evolution and creation have the same origins and destinations. The beginning of life and the end of life.

One theory worhips creation, the other worships the Creator.