Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Guest shiloh357]

Nothing in anything Paul says above indicates that our works have anything to do with receiving or maintaining salvation. The focus is solely Jesus and the cross. The works-based salvation crowd takes the focus off of the cross and places the focus on self and that is why it is a false gospel and not the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who believe and teach that we are saved through what we do, in whole or in part, are under a curse:

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place?

Rev.20

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now let's read who will not be in God's kingdom based on what they DID;

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So those that KEPT God's commandments will be allowed into HIs kingdom.

Those that did NOT keep them will NOT be allowed entrance.

Please note it was not just the one law of 'loving your neighbor' that will keep some outside of the kingdom.

If you keep God's commandments you will enter...if you do not....you will not! It takes MORE than faith! Some action MUST be taken!

See, the problem is that you are relying on prooftexts. You have a certain group of Scriptgures that you use to prove your point, but you are not weighing those Scriptures against the full counsel of God revaeled in the Word of God.

It is inappropriate for you to pit the Bible against itself just because you are trying to impose something on to the text that is not there.

In the first place, it says that they are thrown into the lake of fire because their names were not written in the Book of Life. The one thing that is important to understand about this judgment is that there are no believers present. Beleivers have passed from condemnation into life (John 5:24). I have already been to the judge. I have been justified. I am saved, sealed and preserved by the Holy Spirit who lives in me and testifies that I am a child of God (Rom. 8:16). I have the assurance of salvation because I have three very important things that tell me I am saved today:

1. I have the indwelling witness of the Spirit (Rom. 8:14,16);

2. the external Word ( I John 5:10-13);

3. And the eternal work of the Savior (Is. 53: 4-6; Rom. 3:25; Eph. 1:7).

The Holy Spirit testifies that I AM a Child of God. The Word of God tells me that I can know today that I am saved. And my faith is rooted in the eternal, once-for-all work of the Savior who died on my behalf to reconcile me back to God. I am in Christ and I am a new creation (Rom. 5:17). I don't have to wait for salvation. I am saved now and I can say that on the authority of Scripture.

The people whose names are not written in the Book of Life did not make that commitment. They did not make a decision for Christ and they died in their sins and under the law. That is why they are judged for what they did. They stood before God under the law; the law offers nothing but condemnation. The law can only tell you that you are a sinner and that you deserve death. The law cannot redeem you. No amount of keeping the law will save you. There are no good works effecacious for salvation

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

This is a promise made to the person who overcomes. Question is, how does one "overcome?"

[Guest shiloh357]

Nothing in anything Paul says above indicates that our works have anything to do with receiving or maintaining salvation. The focus is solely Jesus and the cross. The works-based salvation crowd takes the focus off of the cross and places the focus on self and that is why it is a false gospel and not the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who believe and teach that we are saved through what we do, in whole or in part, are under a curse:

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place?

Rev.20

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now let's read who will not be in God's kingdom based on what they DID;

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So those that KEPT God's commandments will be allowed into HIs kingdom.

Those that did NOT keep them will NOT be allowed entrance.

Please note it was not just the one law of 'loving your neighbor' that will keep some outside of the kingdom.

If you keep God's commandments you will enter...if you do not....you will not! It takes MORE than faith! Some action MUST be taken!

See, the problem is that you are relying on prooftexts. You have a certain group of Scriptgures that you use to prove your point, but you are not weighing those Scriptures against the full counsel of God revaeled in the Word of God.

It is inappropriate for you to pit the Bible against itself just because you are trying to impose something on to the text that is not there.

In the first place, it says that they are thrown into the lake of fire because their names were not written in the Book of Life. The one thing that is important to understand about this judgment is that there are no believers present. Beleivers have passed from condemnation into life (John 5:24). I have already been to the judge. I have been justified. I am saved, sealed and preserved by the Holy Spirit who lives in me and testifies that I am a child of God (Rom. 8:16). I have the assurance of salvation because I have three very important things that tell me I am saved today:

1. I have the indwelling witness of the Spirit (Rom. 8:14,16);

2. the external Word ( I John 5:10-13);

3. And the eternal work of the Savior (Is. 53: 4-6; Rom. 3:25; Eph. 1:7).

The Holy Spirit testifies that I AM a Child of God. The Word of God tells me that I can know today that I am saved. And my faith is rooted in the eternal, once-for-all work of the Savior who died on my behalf to reconcile me back to God. I am in Christ and I am a new creation (Rom. 5:17). I don't have to wait for salvation. I am saved now and I can say that on the authority of Scripture.

The people whose names are not written in the Book of Life did not make that commitment. They did not make a decision for Christ and they died in their sins and under the law. That is why they are judged for what they did. They stood before God under the law; the law offers nothing but condemnation. The law can only tell you that you are a sinner and that you deserve death. The law cannot redeem you. No amount of keeping the law will save you. There are no good works effecacious for salvation

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

This is a promise made to the person who overcomes. Question is, how does one "overcome?"

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1Jn 5:4-5)

The person who overcomes is the one who believes on Jesus.

In Rev. 3:5 the promise to the person who overcomes (is born of God by faith in Christ) is that their name will not be blotted out of the Book of Life. The word in Greek is ou mḗ and is double negative. It means "no, not at all, not never." It is emphatic that the person who trusts in Christ, who believes in Him will be eternaly secure. Jesus says that He will not, no not all, not ever, blot his/her name out of the book of life.

So, far from being proof that we are responsible for saving ourselves, the Bible teaches that it is a gift of God's grace that we receive by faith. Redemption stems solely from the finished work of Christ on the cross and if you try add anything to that, you are under a curse.

[enoob57]

Posting additional lies about the Church doesn't help your position. If you want to know what the Church teaches, quote the Catechism.

FYI:

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

this is very cloaked!

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

Now their starting to show their stuff... Baptism is now need in addition to Christ!

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

cloaked but still underlying in the word vocation used here emits the sense of working toward eternal life!

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

baptism again required...

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

what you have here and what lies below is just smoke and daggers against truth! You are a work based salvation!

A supernatural quality infused by God into the soul at the moment of justification, perfecting the soul in a supernatural way, establishing it in justice and sanctity, making it a sharer in the Divine Nature, truly constituting it an adopted son of God with a title to eternal life, and consecrating it as a living temple of the Most High God. By habitual grace, a free gift of God, the soul is privileged to enter on a state of friendship with God, which is of its nature permanent, but may be broken temporarily or forever by the abuse of free will and the introduction of sin. Cherished and guarded in the soul it is an unfailing pledge of everlasting life with God.

http://saints.sqpn.com/ncd03799.htm

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy.

All the this has done is hidden the agenda a little deeper in order to deceive and draw in more to damnation by teaching them that salvation is a joint effort with the person and God! Which in my view cheapens the Work of my Lord to the point of anger and repulsion...

You either take the thief on the cross as what we teach in the requirements of salvation or you make God a respect of person!

Its that simple!

Explain to me how you read 1 Cor 5? Love, Steven

Love, Steven

[Guest]

.... Disagree if you feel the need, but do so with honest posts....

Honestly

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:4-10

[enoob57]

There is nothing cloaked or hidden. You just have fallen for a more modern dogma.

Don't distort Catholic teaching. Disagree if you feel the need, but do so with honest posts.

Chesterton in love I will say this as simply as I can- give up the heart that holds to a Jesus plus and make Jesus ALL.

When and If you do... you will find a new heart that yearns to do the things pleasing to Him, the juxtaposed, of the

heart that operates on if I do I get! One is grace the other is mercenary... One is fully in the realization of a gift of

unbelievable worth: Prov 2:4, 1Cor 3:21-23, Eph 3:8, Col 2:3, 1Jn5:11-13.

The other, which of works, can only lie in dread that they will join these; for it was their banner as well (!)-

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

It is wise to understand that we, in love with Him, by the Love He has given us, will strive to please Him due to that Love not

Law. We have come to understand that in law/works no flesh can be justified- for all fail... this is the humbled heart of constant need of

our Lord, Who Loves us, and has with His Own Blood dressed us to be ready to enter into His Fathers Presence fully justified and

made able to not perish but remain in that presence for eternity!

If you truly wish to be saved examine the truth of where you are: born in a world of sin, in a body of sin, in a soul of sin, completely in

sin, where exactly are your resources to perform works acceptable to a sinless Being? Knowing this- you must be born again not of

corruptible seed but of incorruptible... so you honestly believe you may from here get and maintain it? Realize this incorruptible is made so by the promise of God Who has also given the New Heart found here-

2 Tim 1:10-12

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

NKJV

Because Paul knew once God Word was given It also was so-

Rom 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

Notice that His total reliance was upon Christ and not of Himself. He committed, gave for keeping, trusted in the care, fully persuaded that all created things, which I assume you consider the all of all (even to be you),

could not take His salvation from Him due to the witness of that Salvations very nature 'THE LOVE OF GOD'...

Imagine coming into The Presence of A Father Whom has Given His Son, A Perfect Son, and took all His anger out upon Him

(due you)~ even while The Son asking for another way and yet no other way was found! You are going to say to This Father-

Wow it was a good thing I did this and that or what You did was for nothing.... think about it (it is what you are saying)!

This is why it is so repugnant to me and why His anger will grow so hot in hell cause only The Father and The Son know the

depth of this Sacrifice for us and the The Holy Spirit within the Born of God... it is like a membrane which nothing that is not

of God may cross over and most certainly not anything of this cosmos on it own merit! Love, Steven

[enoob57]

There is nothing cloaked or hidden. You just have fallen for a more modern dogma.

Don't distort Catholic teaching. Disagree if you feel the need, but do so with honest posts.

Chesterton in love I will say this as simply as I can- give up the heart that holds to a Jesus plus and make Jesus ALL.

When and If you do... you will find a new heart that yearns to do the things pleasing to Him, the juxtaposed, of the

heart that operates on if I do I get! One is grace the other is mercenary... One is fully in the realization of a gift of

unbelievable worth: Prov 2:4, 1Cor 3:21-23, Eph 3:8, Col 2:3, 1Jn5:11-13.

The other, which of works, can only lie in dread that they will join these; for it was their banner as well (!)-

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

It is wise to understand that we, in love with Him, by the Love He has given us, will strive to please Him due to that Love not

Law. We have come to understand that in law/works no flesh can be justified- for all fail... this is the humbled heart of constant need of

our Lord, Who Loves us, and has with His Own Blood dressed us to be ready to enter into His Fathers Presence fully justified and

made able to not perish but remain in that presence for eternity!

If you truly wish to be saved examine the truth of where you are: born in a world of sin, in a body of sin, in a soul of sin, completely in

sin, where exactly are your resources to perform works acceptable to a sinless Being? Knowing this- you must be born again not of

corruptible seed but of incorruptible... so you honestly believe you may from here get and maintain it? Realize this incorruptible is made so by the promise of God Who has also given the New Heart found here-

2 Tim 1:10-12

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

NKJV

Because Paul knew once God Word was given It also was so-

Rom 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

Notice that His total reliance was upon Christ and not of Himself. He committed, gave for keeping, trusted in the care, fully persuaded that all created things, which I assume you consider the all of all (even to be you),

could not take His salvation from Him due to the witness of that Salvations very nature 'THE LOVE OF GOD'...

Imagine coming into The Presence of A Father Whom has Given His Son, A Perfect Son, and took all His anger out upon Him

(due you)~ even while The Son asking for another way and yet no other way was found! You are going to say to This Father-

Wow it was a good thing I did this and that or what You did was for nothing.... think about it (it is what you are saying)!

This is why it is so repugnant to me and why His anger will grow so hot in hell cause only The Father and The Son know the

depth of this Sacrifice for us and the The Holy Spirit within the Born of God... it is like a membrane which nothing that is not

of God may cross over and most certainly not anything of this cosmos on it own merit! Love, Steven

You are bound by a modern, man made dogma.

Don't stop learning about Jesus! He has much more in store for you.

Jesus wants to be able to say to you, "Well done, my good and faithful servant!"

Are you not able to separate salvation from sanctification?

[enoob57]

Do you believe that you can go to heaven without being sanctified?

You are asking the wrong man my friend! You need to ask that of the Thief

that died with Christ! He started mocking as the other but changed from

mocking to belief by the Witness of The Son before him! According to

Jesus he is there... according to Christ He would not do for him what he

would do for anyone-> as being no respect of person!

Paul also taught that is was so 1Cor 5:5.

Love, Steven

[enoob57]

A picture is worth 1000 words:

[Eccl12v13]

Exactly what "action" has to be taken, in your theology, to earn salvation?

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place?

Rev.20

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Chesterton, I'm still waiting to hear if the works that we're supposedly doing to earn our salvation are in fact those works found in the Bible, or if you actually don't believe that avoiding immorality and greed are the works, but in fact Catholic sacraments are those works - if it's the later (i.e. if you believe that the works we do to earn salvation are not those found in the passages you quote but are in fact the Catholic Sacraments) then what you're trying to use to support your case isn't actually something that you believe and in point of fact denounces the Catholic teaching outright.

Chesterton, let's just say for the sake of argument that we suppose you're right - all that proves is that the works with which we earn salvation are those ones found in the passages you quote, and that's not at all the works the Catholic Church says earn salvation.

If we grant you this point the inescapable conclusion is that you'd have to grant that the RCC is false, if you were to be honest and consistent.

Is that something you'd actually be willing to do, or do you not really believe the points you're making?

Works don't earn salvation.

Disobedience can earn damnation, however.

The Catholic Church does not teach that works earn salvation, as you know by now. Once again, you are posting lies about the Church. I have no idea what you think this accomplishes.

You know what would be the worst kind of lie ever? The kind where you'd prove that it's true, like I'm going to do right now:

The Council of Trent says this about it:

"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, - we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace..."

That's exactly the opposite of what Ephesians 2:8-9 says about salvation being a gift by grace through faith, not by works and completely contradicts Romans 4: "“Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes (reckons, credits to one’s account) righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4:4-6).

That's my position, and it's based on the exact words of the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church contrasted to the exact words of scripture, so while its cute and everything that you're parroting my charges against your lies back at me, let's be serious and at least try to be consistent and honest for a change, ok sport?

____

Now, the point from which you tried to divert was that you're trying to prove that we need to do good works in order to be saved.

1. You were trying to use the passage from Ephesians 5 which states that no impure, immoral or greedy person will inherit the kingdom of heaven for support.

2. Popes are supposedly vicars of Christ and successors to the Apostolic seat of Peter, leading the one true church in all truth through an unbroken line of apostolic succession by holding the keys to heaven.

3. If a pope was not in the position to inherit the kingdom of heaven then they couldn't have the keys of heaven.

4. There were impure, immoral and greedy popes who remain on the offical list of popes.

5. Those popes did not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

6. There are popes on the official Catholic list of popes who did not have the keys to heaven.

7. The Catholic Church does not have an unbroken line of apostolic succession.

So chesterton, tell me again what you think Ephesians 5 demonstrates, now that we've seen the inescapable conclusion that if you prove your point, you discredit your church.