Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[stacey c]

But it's not ES that is on trial here, it is OSAS

I agree with Butero that OSAS has been taught as 'doctrine' by many.

The problem Candice is that most people make no distinction between the two. Most people assume they are one and the same and that has led to a lot of confusion. Many critics of OSAS believe that it is just another term for ES and it isn't.

What is the difference between the two? (Ligit question because I dont know)

I was taught that OSAS are those who at some time in their life accepting Christ , then for whatever eason returned to their ways , and they believe they are "saved" because at the one time in their lives they followed Christ.

So I know about the scriptures where God states He has sealed us, saved us and will keep us until the end, no man can pluck us out of His hand, ect.......

So you donot believe a man can willfully turn his back on God after salvation?

Blessings stacey c

[Eccl12v13]

Hi Ecc, (sorry, I read so many posts, that I confused you with someone else - maybe I'm under too much stress)

I feel the following is a central issue to your post: “…Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” Though I agree with your post and feel that man should be very careful about claiming his won salvation (very informative), there are several things I want to discuss.

First, do you believe that we will sin basically all our lives? Don’t we have to fight and endure all our lives?

Also, I believe in mercy based on true repentance is something that is not really addressed in your post. Scriptures come to mind:

Oak

Well I will tell you what God's word says and you can take it, read and study it to come to a sound conclusion;

Heb.4

[14] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb.8

[1] Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Notice Paul includes himself by saying we have a high priest. Now what is the job of our high priest? To go to the Father to ask Him to forgive us of our sins. That would not be needed if we no longer sinned.

Let's read what Paul says here;

1 Cor.9

[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now let's read from John;

1 John 2

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So....do we sin until we die? That's a hard one to answer. Because we also have Paul saying this....

2 Tim.4

[7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Here it appears that Paul knows he is at the end of his journey and his fate is set. It seems that at this point in Paul's life to sin, though it is not impossible for him to do, is something he just does not see himself doing.

I pray I could say the same.

As far as mercy.....THANK GOD FOR IT! For we ALL have sinned! As I have asked before....Just when does God say enough is enough? Is it after the 1st, 101st, or 1001st sin? Who knows.

But the one thing we do know is that we have a High Priest that talks to the Father for us, asking for forgiveness!

.

[Guest shiloh357]

But it's not ES that is on trial here, it is OSAS

I agree with Butero that OSAS has been taught as 'doctrine' by many.

The problem Candice is that most people make no distinction between the two. Most people assume they are one and the same and that has led to a lot of confusion. Many critics of OSAS believe that it is just another term for ES and it isn't.

What is the difference between the two? (Ligit question because I dont know)

I was taught that OSAS are those who at some time in their life accepting Christ , then for whatever eason returned to their ways , and they believe they are "saved" because at the one time in their lives they followed Christ.

So I know about the scriptures where God states He has sealed us, saved us and will keep us until the end, no man can pluck us out of His hand, ect.......

So you donot believe a man can willfully turn his back on God after salvation?

Blessings stacey c

The difference between Eternal Security and OSAS begins with their premises. OSAS begins with the premise that man can live any way he wants after salvation. He can live in continuous sin and God will simply give him a pass.

Eternal Securty begins with the premise that a person who has an authentic profession of faith WANTS to live in holiness. They have a desire to live for the Lord and please Him in all things. We may stumble in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord, but that does not jeopardize our salvation. We are not secure so we can live any way we want. Rather the security comes from the understanding that God wil always be faithful to His promises. We are eternally secure because God is not going to change His mind and rescind our salvation. He is not going to take back the gift of eternal life He has given us through Christ.

So, those who profess Christ but live in sin do not have an authentic profession of faith. They did not "lose" salvation, as you cannot lose what you never had in the first place. They are at best, religionists. They are not Christians and their "salvation" is nothing more than a delusion on their part.

I do not believe that a person who has authentic profession of faith will or ever has become apostate.

[oak]

Hi Ecc, (sorry, I read so many posts, that I confused you with someone else - maybe I'm under too much stress)

I feel the following is a central issue to your post: “…Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” Though I agree with your post and feel that man should be very careful about claiming his won salvation (very informative), there are several things I want to discuss.

First, do you believe that we will sin basically all our lives? Don’t we have to fight and endure all our lives?

Also, I believe in mercy based on true repentance is something that is not really addressed in your post. Scriptures come to mind:

Oak

Well I will tell you what God's word says and you can take it, read and study it to come to a sound conclusion;

Heb.4

[14] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb.8

[1] Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Notice Paul includes himself by saying we have a high priest. Now what is the job of our high priest? To go to the Father to ask Him to forgive us of our sins. That would not be needed if we no longer sinned.

Let's read what Paul says here;

1 Cor.9

[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now let's read from John;

1 John 2

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So....do we sin until we die? That's a hard one to answer. Because we also have Paul saying this....

2 Tim.4

[7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Here it appears that Paul knows he is at the end of his journey and his fate is set. It seems that at this point in Paul's life to sin, though it is not impossible for him to do, is something he just does not see himself doing.

I pray I could say the same.

As far as mercy.....THANK GOD FOR IT! For we ALL have sinned! As I have asked before....Just when does God say enough is enough? Is it after the 1st, 101st, or 1001st sin? Who knows.

But the one thing we do know is that we have a High Priest that talks to the Father for us, asking for forgiveness!

.

Thank you for the answer - very wise. I have feeling that the Bible will break you down mentally till you rely on faith alone.

Oak

[Guest shiloh357]

Let's read what Paul says here;

1 Cor.9

[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul is not talking about trying to stay saved. Paul is talking about not being disqualified for ministry. If you go back up earlier in the chapter, Paul's line of thought is about the preaching of the Gospel and how that he disciplines himself so that the way he lives does not bring a reproach on the message of the Gospel. The topic Paul is addressing has nothing to do with trying remain saved.

2 Tim.4

[7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Here it appears that Paul knows he is at the end of his journey and his fate is set. It seems that at this point in Paul's life to sin, though it is not impossible for him to do, is something he just does not see himself doing.

That is not what Paul is saying at all. Paul is simply summing up his ministry and acknoweldging that he has done what the Lord the told him to do.

Tell me Eccl.... Do you believe that committing one sin causes a person to lose their salvation?

[Eccl12v13]

Tell me Eccl.... Do you believe that committing one sin causes a person to lose their salvation?

As far as mercy.....THANK GOD FOR IT! For we ALL have sinned! As I have asked before....Just when does God say enough is enough? Is it after the 1st, 101st, or 1001st sin? Who knows.

The ONLY thing we know for sure is that SIN is the ONLY action that can cause a name to be blotted out of God's books!

And WHO controls whether we sin or not? We DO!

So Who controls whether our names are blotted out or kept in God's books? WE DO!

So WHO controls our final dwelling place? WE DO!

.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Eccl12v13

[stacey c]

But it's not ES that is on trial here, it is OSAS

I agree with Butero that OSAS has been taught as 'doctrine' by many.

The problem Candice is that most people make no distinction between the two. Most people assume they are one and the same and that has led to a lot of confusion. Many critics of OSAS believe that it is just another term for ES and it isn't.

What is the difference between the two? (Ligit question because I dont know)

I was taught that OSAS are those who at some time in their life accepting Christ , then for whatever eason returned to their ways , and they believe they are "saved" because at the one time in their lives they followed Christ.

So I know about the scriptures where God states He has sealed us, saved us and will keep us until the end, no man can pluck us out of His hand, ect.......

So you donot believe a man can willfully turn his back on God after salvation?

Blessings stacey c

The difference between Eternal Security and OSAS begins with their premises. OSAS begins with the premise that man can live any way he wants after salvation. He can live in continuous sin and God will simply give him a pass.

Eternal Securty begins with the premise that a person who has an authentic profession of faith WANTS to live in holiness. They have a desire to live for the Lord and please Him in all things. We may stumble in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord, but that does jeopardize our salvation. We are not secure so we can live any way we want. Rather the security comes from the understanding that God wil always be faithful to His promises. We are eternally secure because God is not going to change His mind and rescind our salvation. He is not going to take back the gift of eternal life He has given us through Christ.

So, those who profess Christ but live in sin do not have an authentic profession of faith. They did not "lose" salvation, as you cannot lose what you never had in the first place. They are at best, religionists. They are not Christians and their "salvation" is nothing more than a delusion on their part.

I do not believe that a person who has authentic profession of faith will or ever has become apostate.

Ok, Thank you.

Then ES is alot different than OSAS.

This is the way I believe but never put the name ES to it!

I believe God's promises are yes and amen, that He will finish this work in me, and that His Grace and Mercy will see me thru my short comings until the end. He will never turn His back on me because of my short coimings!

Praise God!!!!!!!

[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me Eccl.... Do you believe that committing one sin causes a person to lose their salvation?

As far as mercy.....THANK GOD FOR IT! For we ALL have sinned! As I have asked before....Just when does God say enough is enough? Is it after the 1st, 101st, or 1001st sin? Who knows.

The ONLY thing we know for sure is that SIN is the ONLY action that can cause a name to be blotted out of God's books!

And WHO controls whether we sin or not? We DO!

So Who controls whether our names are blotted out or kept in God's books? WE DO!

So WHO controls our final dwelling place? WE DO!

.

You did not answer the question. Do you believe ONE sin is enough to lose salvation/be blotted out of the books? If I commit one sin, is my name immediately blotted out of God's book in your view?

So you believe that your salvation is up to you? You are the one who determines whether or not you are saved?

[oak]

So you believe that your salvation is up to you? You are the one who determines whether or not you are saved?

You fascinate me Shiloh. You seem to think only one will can be at work. Then tell me who willed Christ to be crucified? If you say God the Father, it’s a yes; if you say Christ, it’s a yes; if you say humanity, it’s a yes as well. Or do you feel God didn’t hold people accountable for their will? Sorry to interrupt your flow but when you have chance I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Oak

[Guest shiloh357]

So you believe that your salvation is up to you? You are the one who determines whether or not you are saved?

You fascinate me Shiloh. You seem to think only one will can be at work. Then tell me who willed Christ to be crucified? If you say God the Father, it’s a yes; if you say Christ, it’s a yes; if you say humanity, it’s a yes as well. Or do you feel God didn’t hold people accountable for their will? Sorry to interrupt your flow but when you have chance I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Oak

It is not so much about will as it is merit. Do you believe you are saved because you earned/deserve it? Is it your efforts that keep you saved? Works do not save us, no matter how grandiose they appear in our eyes. Salvation is found in only one place and that is at the cross of Calvary. All men are equally sinful and there is only one remedy for sin: The finished work of Christ on the cross. No one, no matter how good they may appear to be in our eyes will ever find the way to God through their own efforts. Mother Teresa, for all her good works, was no closer to bridging the gap between her and God than Hitler was.

Salvation does not stem from a program of performace-based acceptance. God is not interested in man peforming well enough for Him. Man can't possibly do that even if God did expect it. Salvation is based on the grace of God extended to man and man responding to God's offer of grace by faith.