Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Guest]

Good point! Because if we are NOT keeping God's commandments to the best of our abilities...that would make us SINNERS! And that's who Jesus is coming back to punish!

Will You Believe?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Or Not?

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

[Guest shiloh357]

OSAS IS IN FACT A DOCTRINAL BELIEF OR IS BELIEVED AS IF IT WERE A VIABLE DOCTRINE. But it is a false doctrine and it is not simply individuals who believe in the OSAS doctrine it is hundreds of millions of believers who have been decieved by the teaching of this false doctrine.

The idea of eternal security (which is the same doctrine as the OSAS doctrinal belief) is also a false teaching because ones name can be blotted out of the lambs book of life after being saved. Scripture is quit clear in that one must COMPLETE the race. Endure to the end or run the good race or you will not recieve the promised reward for crossing the finish line because you quit the race before you completed the course.

What does Paul say? "Should we continue to sin so that Grace shall abound all the more?" God forbid. If we are a drunk and come to Christ with the right heart and give our life over to Christ and then some time in the future turn back to Drunkeness. Do we still get the reward of eternal life with Jesus? No way Hosa. Because there will be no drunkerds in heaven. The only way we can be assured a place in heaven is if we cross the finish line with our integrety complete and shining. Not even the angels have eternal security. They have no redemption for thier disobedience.

Oh I almost forgot. In post # 42 you used the word "books" as in the plural to speak about the Lambs book of life. But there is only one Lambs book of life not more then one.

There are several problems with what you have posted. For one thing, you claim that eternal life is a reward that we must earn/win. But that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that eternal life is a free gift.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

The second problem is that you misreprsent the point that Paul is making in Rom. 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 6:1-2)

Paul's point makes the exact point I was making; that a sincere believer isn't living in sin or returning to a sinful life. A sincere believer has a heart to serve God.

Thirdly, you insist that eternal security and OSAS are the same but they are not. OSAS is a perversion of Eternal Security A peson who has authentic profession of faith in Christ is eternally secure in the knowledge that God is not going to rescind the plan of salvation and take away the salvatoin He promised. It has nothing to do with thinking you can live any way you want. That is the perversion that OSAS speaks to.

Your questions reek of witchcraft.

Aw c'mon Massorite, can't you come up with a better personal attack than that?

Actually we do have control over our salvation. God may have called us but it was our choice to choose Christ over the things of this world and it our God given choice to throw away or salvation by falling back into un-repented sin.

Except for the promise of Agape Love, every single promise God gave or has given us is based on conditions set forth by God that we have to obey before we can recieve the reward God has promised us. If you keep my statutes. If you obey my commandments. If you repent and stay that way I will give you eternal life.

So what happens if we don't keep the commandments of God? Should we expect to recieve the reward for our disobedience? I don't think so.

It is through the Grace of God that we are given the chance to recieve salvation but it by our choice that we keep our salvation by seeking to be Christ like unto death.

The problem is that you cannot build a biblical case for that position. In fact, you have to rely solely human reasoning and logic to arrive at the notion that what God says is a gift, is really a reward that has to be earned.

[Guest shiloh357]

A lot of people have “religion.” Anyone can be religious and live what they believe to the “Christian life.” They go to church, sing in the choir, teach Sunday School and even participate in other activities such as Vacation Bible School, Pulpit Committees and mission trips. At some point though, those who do such things in a futile attempt to garner favor and acceptance from God will break down.

Religion is a drain on your strength and resources. It requires you to give and give and give and offers nothing in return. Religion makes incredible, but does not empower you o fulfill its demands and does not reward those who are faithful. It offers no peace, no race and certainly no assurance. Religion establishes rules that you must follow in order to secure, maintain or otherwise ensure your right standing with God. The problem is that religious cannot tell you when you have done enough. Religion is nothing but performance-based acceptance. In religion, grace is only extended to those who live according to the standards that religion imposes. If eternal life is based on what you do, you have no idea how much is required, or if you have really met the standard. You will not know until the moment after you die. For this reason, religion is the kiss of death to biblical faith. Rather than produce a full assurance of faith, it imposes a lack of assurance.

Jesus, on the other hand, offers you eternal life because He is eternal life. Eternal life is not a place or even a length of time; it is Jesus Himself. He also said that because of our faith in Him, we could KNOW that we HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). Genuine salvation is a know-so salvation. It is not something we have to wait and find out about after we die. It is possible to belong to the Christian “religion” all your life, but miss out on Christ. There are people who are going to hell, no because they are drug addicts, murderers or prostitutes, but because they never were. These are people who are just strutting right into hell with their heads held high depending on their good works and religiosity to tip the scales of Heaven in their favor. This is futile for two reasons: Firstly, there are no scales in Heaven where access to God’s grace is concerned and secondly, God is not nearly as impressed with their good works as they are.

There is a certain type of religious vanity that some people possess. This vanity causes them to incorrectly view salvation as a reward for service resulting from their good works and meticulous observance of God’s law. It causes them to live under the delusion that they are capable by means of their good works to be pleasing to the Lord. While we may do works that are pleasing to the Lord, it is not possible, by means of those works, for anyone to be personally pleasing to the Lord. This is because all of us bear the stain of Adam’s sin. All of our works no matter how grand they may appear in our eyes will always be tainted with the stain of sin. Nothing we do will ever allow us to meet God’s perfect standard. God’s standard of perfection stands beyond what we can ever do. It is not just a matter of meticulous observance of good works; rather, God’s standard calls for inner perfection without the stain of original sin. Even if it were possible to live one’s entire life without violating a single commandment of God, that alone would not be good enough.

Salvation is possible only when the righteousness of the law is being fulfilled in us. That is one thing that we cannot by any means achieve, and are not even commanded by God to achieve. The only person in history who has ever fulfilled the righteousness of the law is Jesus. Jesus not only kept the law perfectly, he fulfilled the righteousness contained in it as well. It is Jesus fulfilling the righteousness of the law in us that ensures our salvation. There are no “ifs” when it comes to salvation. Salvation is not, “if you do this, or “if” you don’t do that, you will be saved.” It is either a work of God, or He wants nothing to do with it. Jesus wants to be Lord of all, or not Lord or at all. He does not share the stage with us. He is not going to share the credit for your salvation. Salvation is not a partnership effort between man and God. You were not good enough to merit salvation in the first place, and you are not good enough or strong enough to keep what only God could give you. Salvation, from beginning to end, is wholly a work of God without any human contribution.

Biblical, New Testament grace, properly understood and applied, is death knell to religion. Grace is not the absence of obedience. Rather, it is the catalyst and empowerment to obey. Grace is opposed to religion because religion operates from an inaccurate measuring standard. Religious vanity measures itself against those who do not meet its standard of righteousness. The New Testament teaches us to measure ourselves against Christ. Jesus is the plum line. He is the only standard against which we should measures ourselves. In act, if we were to do that, we would not have time to measure and size up one another.

Far from being a license to sin, Grace is the expectation of righteous living according to Paul:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Titus 2:11-14)

This passage teaches us four things:

1. To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts

2. To live soberly, righteously and godly in this present life.

3. To look for the blessed hope of Christ’s appearance.

4. That our redemption is Christ was accomplished with a view of purify us to Himself as a peculiar people zealous for good works.

Grace, properly understood, encourages obedience. That obedience, according to verse 11, is the result of salvation, not the means of procuring it. The grace that saves us and keep us, also empowers us to live a godly life as a direct result of the inward, transforming work wrought by God in the person of the Holy Spirit the minute we accept Christ as Savior. What grace does not teach us in that our works maintain or ensure our right standing with God. That is what makes religion the antithesis of grace and the authentic Christian faith. Grace does not contribute to the vanity of religious pride, which deludes a person into thinking that their “holiness” is earning them salvation points with God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Intentional, unrepentant sin can destroy one's faith.

Fortunately, an authentic believer is not living in intentional unrepentant sin and thus has nothing to fear where eternity is concerned.

[Eccl12v13]

Sin is the ONLY action God tells us will cause Him to blot out a name from His books.

So WHO is responsible for whether a person sins or not? The individual....each one of us is responsible for either commiting or not comminting sin!

So WHO is responsible for ensuring their name is NOT blotted out of God's books? The individual.....each one of us!

And what is the reward for each of us? Salvation! Eternal life with God is what He promised! Being spared dying the second death! NOT being thrown into the lake of fire is salvation! That is what we are saved FROM!

How can obedience be the result of salvation when salvation IS the end result? Do we receive salvation because of DISOBEDIENCE to or to obeying God?

Readers....do NOT let someone attempt to tell you that obedience is the RESULT of salvation! Let's not forget about that common sense God gave us!

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[stacey c]

We seem to look over 1 of the basic statements of the op. He stated that a person does not know whether their name is written in The Book of Life until they stand before the throne on Judgement Day. Here is the problem with that as I see it.........

Lack of faith in the foundation of our christian walk

Jesus said "He is the way, the truth and the Life, and those who believe in Him shall have Eternal LIfe."

If we can't believe that first, how can we have faith in anything else God has given us in His Word. We either believe all of it or none of it......

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

It's not about anything I can do to earn my way in to heaven, but all about Him who thru His marvelous Love and Grace has GIVEN us entrance thru acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Blessings stacey c

[enoob57]

Sin is the ONLY action God tells us will cause Him to blot out a name from His books.

So WHO is responsible for whether a person sins or not? The individual....each one of us is responsible for either commiting or not comminting sin!

So WHO is responsible for ensuring their name is NOT blotted out of God's books? The individual.....each one of us!

And what is the reward for each of us? Salvation! Eternal life with God is what He promised! Being spared dying the second death! NOT being thrown into the lake of fire is salvation! That is what we are saved FROM!

How can obedience be the result of salvation when salvation IS the end result? Do we receive salvation because of DISOBEDIENCE to or to obeying God?

Readers....do NOT let someone attempt to tell you that obedience is the RESULT of salvation! Let's not forget about that common sense God gave us!

Sir with the respect of Christ in view, what was said above by Shiloh, is the correct response to this understanding below:

In the Garden where Christ actually ask from His Friends to watch and pray... they failed even in the attempt! As the Son bled from His humanity side when it came into completeness of time with His Spiritual realities of the sacrifice of eternal Oneness with The Father, because of our sin, now we sit in this discussion!

As Shiloh has said- "we were born in sin and live in sin and sin is our everyday example"... even in our own hearts, and family of God we find impurity of sin (after being born of God)...

1 Cor 5:6-8

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

NKJV

Verse 7 is the platform that my brother in Christ "Shiloh" teaches you from...

Now the reasoning of all this... any man being of sin, in sin, surrounded by sin has the ability to form a new lump.

My only question is from where does the newness come? From the world of sin? From the bodies of sin? From the soul of sin?

Where? It can only come from where there is no leaven of sin...

Matt 13:33

33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures

of meal till it was all leavened."

NKJV

We know Christ came down out of Heaven to provide the new lumps for all that ask of Him salvation and has returned into Heaven to provide a New Heaven and New Earth where only the leaven of Righteousness abides forever. This of course after His Word completely fulfilled! Hence the understanding of the parable above the woman=Church, The Three Measures of Meal=The Godhead as represented by The Christ the living bread come down out of Heaven and all that eats of His Body shall never perish.

Ps 119:11

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

KJV

If I were you sir-> I would not rely on my actions, or use of this stuff here, or self authority to expect from Christ acceptance of being! I fear my Brothers assessment may be right- the formed is out of religion not relation...

for what kind of heart believes there is anything in this place that can even come near the pleading Son resolved to The Will of The Father in the formation of salvation by THEIR SACRIFICE ALONE... certainly not the stench of works by man!

Love, Steven

[Isaiah 6:8]

It's not about anything I can do to earn my way in to heaven, but all about Him who thru His marvelous Love and Grace has GIVEN us entrance thru acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Blessings stacey c

Sin, which is something you do, can destroy your faith. Right?

Where does it say that sin, in and of itself destroys your faith?

There are many who are outwardly righteous that will not make it, and there are many who are not so outwardly righteous that will. The word says that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ. Nothing.

Now if you are speaking of turning your back on Christ and fully rejecting him, then yes, that is a sin that can cause you to lose your faith. However, if a person is a drug addict and gets saved but dies before he beats his addiction, would they be saved, as they are living in sin, but fighting against it?

[stacey c]

It's not about anything I can do to earn my way in to heaven, but all about Him who thru His marvelous Love and Grace has GIVEN us entrance thru acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Blessings stacey c

Sin, which is something you do, can destroy your faith. Right?

We all fall short on a daily basis, we are human, whether it be lies, pride, anger....ect....

Does it destroy my faith because I screw up?

No, it makes me even more thankful and contrite when I fall to my knees before my Lord and ask for His forgiveness, because He is merciful and just to forgive me.

That knowledge of Daddy's love for me makes my faith stronger.

Does that give me a pass to go out an willfully sin? No, it makes me seek harder after His Righteousness.

I can do nothing to earn my salvation, it was already sealed when I accepted what He did for me on Calvary.

Blessings stacey c

[Eccl12v13]

I can do nothing to earn my salvation, it was already sealed when I accepted what He did for me on Calvary.

It takes more than just faith and acceptance for what Christ did for salvation!

James 1

[21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

We have to DO something for salvation! Some sort of act MUST be taken. For if we have faith only but do not act upon it we are left with dead faith!

I can have faith in God all I want...but until I prove my faith by taking action my faith is dead?

Let's go and read the next chapter of James where he tells us this;

James 2

[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Well? Can faith alone save a man? And just WHAT is it that we are to be saved from? Afterall....that's what salvation is....being saved FROM SOMETHING! Let's continue while you think about that for a moment.....

[15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

[16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Now let's read of one example James gives us that shows some sort of action, some sort of deed, some sort of WORK is needed to go along with the faith we claim.

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

And what was the 'work' that Abraham performed proving his faith in the Lord? He drew back the knife!

[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Just because Paul does not use works as an example does NOT mean works is not needed! Let's read some more...

[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So...are we to ignore the writings of James because Paul tells us that;

Eph.2

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No we are not. What we MUST understand is that when Paul speaks of 'works' and 'deeds' of the law, he is speaking about ANOTHER set of laws. A set of laws other than the ones he tells us to keep and that he says are holy, just and good!

Will you search God's word to find that Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws in his writings?

God's word tells us we will be judged by our works! But does that mean faith is not needed? No! It just means that BOTH are a requirement for salvation!

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