Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I was reading these posts and both sides are firmly entrenched and unmovable. However I have a question for the Eternal Security side. The Beatitudes are a wondrous road map for a Christian. What need do you guys have for them? You accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit is working for you, works are just an outward expression or really not sufficient at all. Are you guys, poor in spirit, meek etc., automatically when you accept Christ? How do you use them? I think Eccl’s side is saying it takes effort for salvation. By the way Shiloh, you told me you want to write a book on them. Oak Yes, Eccl is saying that personal effort is necessary for salvation and anyone who is trusting in their efforts and hard work to earn them a place in heaven will be sorely disappointed. The Sermon On the Mount is the cornerstone of Christian faith and practice. The "Poor in Spirit" are those who recognize their need for Christ. They are those who, instead of relying on their own merit or efforts recognize they are spiritually "poor" and trust in the Lord for salvation. The same goes for those who are meek. Meekness is rooted in faith and trust. That is a major misreading of the beatitudes. The beatitudes are about Christian actions. Putting faith to work is necessary for salvation. Matt 5 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Here's the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount: 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” But he does not mention this is about salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Let me ask you something.....what will we be judged by when the books are opened? Our faith or our deeds....the actions we did or did not perform? Just something to consider. It depends on the judgement you recieve. The Great White Throne is reserved for the unrepentant. If your name is in the Book of Life, you are then at the Judgement seat of Christ, where "rewards" are handed out to those that qualify for them. Our actions will be judged on basis of our intentions. At least that is how I understand Matt. 25:31-46. Does not sound like a very fair God...to have TWO criteria's for salvation now does it? . Rewards apart from salvation, I believe is what he is speaking of. Extra rewards in heaven for a job well done.This apart from the free gift of salvation. I believe that is a modern interpretation that contradicts much of scripture. Did you see my post in response to your question? You speaking to me or Eccl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 We do things to please Him because of our love for Him and His sacrifice but even if we did nothing but accept His 'free gift of salvation' Did Jesus give EVERYBODY this 'free gift of salvation'? . Yes, all you have to do is confess your sin, ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. It is all by faith in Jesus Christ and Him alone. If you die at that moment, you are correct. However, you seem to be missing much of scriptures message. Did you read these? Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism. Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." Gal 6 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Romans 2 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Matt 16:27 Matthew For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 2 Corinthians 11:15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. Wow many of those scriptures are taken out of context. You must use the full scripture to have the correct context. Please show this with full context of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 That is a major misreading of the beatitudes. The beatitudes are about Christian actions. Putting faith to work is necessary for salvation. Matt 5 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Here's the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount: 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” So, once again you're trusting in the inference you make about a metaphor over the express words of God "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) "... to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5-6). "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:5-6). Trusting in your understanding of how metaphors might be taken over what God states is building on sand instead of standing on the Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 No, but I can and have cited scripture that says are saved by grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8-9) I'm trying to understand you here....are you claiming that a person can be saved with faith and no works are needed? . For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Rom 3:20-28) yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:16) Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- (Php 3:8-9) Those above Scripture passages and others tell m that my works are not the means by which I am made right before God. It is by faith in Christ that I am redeemed and have confidence before God for salvation and a sure hope for fullness of His promises to me and everyone whose hope is based on faith in Christ and grace offered through means of His finsihed work on the cross. My faith has found a resting place, Not in device nor creed; I trust the Ever-living One, His wounds for me shall plead. I need no other argument, I need no other plea; It is enough that Jesus died, And that He died for me. Enough for me that Jesus saves, This ends my fear and doubt; A sinful soul I come to Him, He'll never cast me out. My heart is leaning on the Word, The written Word of God, Salvation by my Savior's name, Salvation through His blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Matt 5 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. But the "righteousness" of the Scribes and Pharisees were rooted in works, in keeping the law and the Oral law. So if you are relying your works to benefit you, you are trusting in something Jesus said was not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Salvation is by grace through faith and works. Grace comes first, but our response is necessary, as scripture makes very clear. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 Matt 5 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Uh, Chesterton, the works of the Pharasees were above reproach as far as human effort was concerned. Their fault was that they sought salvation by works instead of simply by faith, "That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone" (Romans 9: 30-32). And that they followed the traditions of man instead of the word of God "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye" (Mark 7:13) "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9). Matt 7:21 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Right, and the will of God is that we're saved by grace through faith not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) so ask yourself who's excluded from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 Salvation is by grace through faith and works. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:5-6) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I was reading these posts and both sides are firmly entrenched and unmovable. However I have a question for the Eternal Security side. The Beatitudes are a wondrous road map for a Christian. What need do you guys have for them? You accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit is working for you, works are just an outward expression or really not sufficient at all. Are you guys, poor in spirit, meek etc., automatically when you accept Christ? How do you use them? I think Eccl’s side is saying it takes effort for salvation. By the way Shiloh, you told me you want to write a book on them. Oak Yes, Eccl is saying that personal effort is necessary for salvation and anyone who is trusting in their efforts and hard work to earn them a place in heaven will be sorely disappointed. The Sermon On the Mount is the cornerstone of Christian faith and practice. The "Poor in Spirit" are those who recognize their need for Christ. They are those who, instead of relying on their own merit or efforts recognize they are spiritually "poor" and trust in the Lord for salvation. The same goes for those who are meek. Meekness is rooted in faith and trust. That is a major misreading of the beatitudes. The beatitudes are about Christian actions. Putting faith to work is necessary for salvation. Matt 5 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Here's the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount: 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Actually, you have not got a firm grip on the Sermon on the Mount. Nothng in that Sermon is about how get saved. It is about what righteousness and faith look like. It is how we should live AFTER we are saved. There is no way a person live that sermon good eough to merit salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts