Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Matt 5 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. But the "righteousness" of the Scribes and Pharisees were rooted in works, in keeping the law and the Oral law. So if you are relying your works to benefit you, you are trusting in something Jesus said was not good enough. Works of the law, not works of Love. Matt 6 14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matt 7 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matt 7 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Faith works by love. Love expresses itself within the context of abiblical faith. Works of love are how we demonstrate our faith. It is how people see that our profession is true. Our works affirm our profession in the sight of men and God is glorified in that: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Mat 5:16) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 [Works of the law, not works of Love. God says not by works at all "to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5), "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 Salvation is by grace through faith and works. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:5-6) Gal 6 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Matt7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Titus 2 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. Romans 2 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Wow, a bunch of passages that don't support your point. That's how you challenge the fact that you said "Salvation is by grace through faith and works" and I pointed out that scripture actually clarifies the exact opposite here "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)? So which actually says that Ephesians is wrong? Which one actually says that "salvation is by grace through faith and works"? O right, none of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Salvation is by grace through faith and works. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:5-6) Gal 6 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Matt7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Titus 2 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. Romans 2 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Chesterton, the others have replied with full context of scripture, including other verses around it. You are the king of one liners. You see if you take anything out of context you can make it mean what every you want. Please put your verses in the full context of the chapter they are in. By not doing this you are digging yourself a hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 Faith works through love if we accept and cooperate with God's grace. Faith does not take away our free will. So just try to account for these, please: "to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5), "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 [Feel free to demonstrate that these verses mean something different than what they say. Your post doesn't make any sense, bu the verses above make perfect sense. Do you want us to copy and paste our extensive treatments of each of these passages from the other threads that show that they soundly disconfirm your point, to which you've always only been able to follow up with the accusation that all explanations are pointless filibuster? Is that what you want, because I've got some serious 'control-v' capability here if you think that will advance the discussion in a meaningful direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Faith works through love if we accept and cooperate with God's grace. Faith does not take away our free will. No, faith simply works through love. It doesn't matter if YOU cooperate or not. Genuine faith is always borne out in works of love. That is a rock hard biblical principle that stands on its own and needs no qualifiers or add-ons from a flawed, finite sinner like yourself. I believe in free will. I assume that a person chooses obey the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccl12v13 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 In a nutshell it is this. Faith is more then simple belief, they are different. Faith believes yes, however it is belief put into action. You see stating that you have faith, and not showing it, not stepping up on the shoulders of the tightrope walker shows your faith to be dead. However, once you take the step of faith, you allow faith and grace to carry you over, you do nothing else. You do not do any work in and of yourself to make it across the rope. You see we, like Abraham are justified by faith. Not by works. The Justification comes from the faith. The works are the outpouring and the showing of faith. You get works from faith. You do not get faith from works. You use your muscles to make it over. Just believing without any action/work leaves you nowhere! Did not God's word tell us that Abraham was justified by WORKS? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Okay Here is one example. Gal 6 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Now in proper context of the rest of the verse. New King James Version (NKJV) Galatians 6 Bear and Share the Burdens 1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load. Be Generous and Do Good 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Glory Only in the Cross 11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand! 12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. Blessing and a Plea 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 17 From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. You see in context, this verse is not about salvation by works, but about not boasting in who you are, and that your works, will show where your heart is. What you sow you shall reap that is principle that speaks to faith. You see sowing to the spirit, would be faith, would it not? How do you so to the spirit? You see this is a call to good deed, however at the end of the chapter, Paul again reiterates that only the cross matters. You see another part of the context is this, you must take all of the book in. So lets look at Galatians chapter 3. The full thing. Galatians 3 Justification by Faith 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. The Law Brings a Curse 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. The Changeless Promise 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Purpose of the Law 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Sons and Heirs 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. The bold big letters spell it out. Same author that you claim speaks that works are needed for salvation. We are not justified by works but by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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