Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 5, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Also what Eccl and Chesterton refuse to do is follow these two simple Bible study rules. Doing so would likely change there whole life. Take your own advice. Tell me, why does the bible spend so many words describing which behaviors are acceptable and which are unacceptable? I do. You can look at my posts and see that I do. What are you speaking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 6, 2011 This thread was started by a non Catholic. I know The majority of Christians do not accept that salvation is by faith alone. False. If you make such a statement, you need to back it up with facts. You have not. The Catholic Church only came up because a protestant brought it up. Yes. I have asked you to drop the subject. You have been promoting catholic talking points with out mentioning the church by name. Does not matter. I said drop it. My arguments are based on scripture. Taken out of context. You see twisting truth to fit a lie does not make the lie true. You refuse to use proper context. You leave out verses that fly in the face of your doctrine. You see even Satan quoted scripture, did that make what he said true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Also Chesterton, You can not work your way into being alive? You see salvation is Christ making us Alive when we were dead in sin. You can not work up life. You can work you self to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 6, 2011 The majority of Christians in the world are Catholic, but many more are Orthodox and Anglican, and most of these also reject the dogma of salvation by faith alone, as do many other smaller denominations. Again, this is not proof you stating it is not proof. Your claim that I have taken scripture out of context is true, but all scripture quoted with less than a full book is out of context. Not true. For instance. The book of Genesis, if you take the story of Joseph out of it, that is not out of context, with the creation of man. They are addressing two fully different issues. Now taking something out of the story, for instance, the selling Joseph to the slave traders, and saying that we all should be sold to slave traders, because it worked out okay for Joseph. That is taking it out of context. The question is, do the verses I have presented change the meaning of the scriptures, and the answer is NO. Yes, when you ignore the paragraph even the full sentence in which the scripture is in. You don't like to be confronted with passages that contradict your dogma, which I understand, but if you can't defend your dogma that is not my fault. Nope, you do not like it. You ignore the scriptures that I have quoted, you ignore all scriptures that fly in the face of your doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Also Chesterton, You can not work your way into being alive? You see salvation is Christ making us Alive when we were dead in sin. You can not work up life. You can work you self to death. We choose to cooperate with or to reject God's grace. The seeds that fell on the rocky soil are those who hear the word and accept it with joy, but they do not persevere and bear fruit. We cannot save ourselves by our actions, but we can reject God's grace by our actions. You did not answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2011 There is a huge difference between refusing to accept the gift in the first place, and losing the gift once it has been received. Sorry Iz but the Parable of the Sower can't be used to assert salvation can be lost. It's about the condition of the heart and under which condition solid faith grows and produces fruit. It's not about solid mature trees dying. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. There was no root in these people and they never produced fruit. It's the difference between mental assent and placing strong faith in Christ. Real believers always bear fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2011 That's not the correct interpretation of the parable of the sower . Since when does the plant/seed 'choose' or 'hang on'? So its about letting the Seed of the word of God grow and prudence fruit. All a person has to do is hold on to it and let it grow. Holding on by the strictest definition is a work but in this sense it is the difference of keeping a gift or throwing it away, or allowing it to be stolen. So can you lose your salvation? Well according to this yes, it can be stolen or choked out. You can choose not to let it grow. Holding on implies something by our own strength. How does this square with Jude? 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, The bible is quite clear that sin can separate us from God. Our actions can lead us away from God. John 15 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned....10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall". 2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you". 2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them." Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. You don't need to convince me. I am not a part of the OSAS/ES group. I simply don't think the parable of the sower can be used to defend or refute that doctrine. The POTS is about the condition of the heart when it is presented with the Word. I don't believe OSAS, but not because of POTS. I really think it is inappropriate justification for their claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2011 There is a huge difference between refusing to accept the gift in the first place, and losing the gift once it has been received. Sorry Iz but the Parable of the Sower can't be used to assert salvation can be lost. It's about the condition of the heart and under which condition solid faith grows and produces fruit. It's not about solid mature trees dying. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. There was no root in these people and they never produced fruit. It's the difference between mental assent and placing strong faith in Christ. Real believers always bear fruit. So are you saying it was God's fault that they fell away? What keeps a person who receives the word with joy from maintaining their faith? They had no faith to start with, so there is nothing to blame God for. They had mental assent which is no where near having real saving faith. What they had was a feel good temporary buzz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 6, 2011 There is a huge difference between refusing to accept the gift in the first place, and losing the gift once it has been received. Sorry Iz but the Parable of the Sower can't be used to assert salvation can be lost. It's about the condition of the heart and under which condition solid faith grows and produces fruit. It's not about solid mature trees dying. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. There was no root in these people and they never produced fruit. It's the difference between mental assent and placing strong faith in Christ. Real believers always bear fruit. Okay, thanks I had that mixed up from childhood.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Also Chesterton, You can not work your way into being alive? You see salvation is Christ making us Alive when we were dead in sin. You can not work up life. You can work you self to death. We choose to cooperate with or to reject God's grace. The seeds that fell on the rocky soil are those who hear the word and accept it with joy, but they do not persevere and bear fruit. We cannot save ourselves by our actions, but we can reject God's grace by our actions. You did not answer my question. Sorry I did not put that in the form of a question as I thought I did. I do apologize. . I am glad you say we can not be saved by our actions. You didn't ask a question. Grace gives us life, but it doesn't take away our ability to reject this same grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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