Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Eccl12v13]

That's because keeping God's laws WON'T give you salvation. Salvation is a gift, but you are so caught up in your false teachings, you can't see the truth. Your best isn't good enough. You are not good enough. You cannot please God in your own efforts.

But God's word tells us if we KEEP His commandments we will have the right to the tree of life. Are you saying that God is lying when He tell us the following?

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

If we are in HIs city and NOT in hell is that not salvation? What else is there to be saved from?

Do we ignore what He said above?

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

.

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[Guest shiloh357]

God's word does not say what you claim. It does NOT say that these being judged for NOT accepting Christ as their savior. It says they are being judged based upon their WORKS...not faith or acceptance of Jesus Christ!

How do you get, what you claim from this;

"...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

and,

"...and they were judged every man according to their works."

Prove from scriptures that these are being judged based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ?

I don't think you understand the nature of this judgment. This is not judgment in the sense that God is weighing them in the balance to see if they are good enough to go to heaven. They are coming before the throne to be sentenced and cast into the lake of fire. They chose continued separation from God and now they are standing at the throne to receive the final sentence and to go to their eternal destruction. If a person is standing at THIS throne, there is no hope; they are not saved. There is not ONE person who is a Christian that will appear at THIS throne of judgment.

See, these are people who died under the condemntation of the law and they are receiving that condemnation at that time. In fact, because you have rejected the Gospel and have opted to save yourself through your own efforts, you will be judged on that basis.

Are you REALLY sure you want to go that route? How do you know that your good works are good enough? What standard do you have to measure your goodness against to see if what you are doing is pleasing to God

Let's say you have the world's greatest lasagna; it is world famous and all the greatest chefs in the world testify that your lasagna is the best. But what happens if you take that lasagna to the state fair and enter it into an apple pie judging contest? Will it win? No, because the judges are not looking for lasagna. It is good lasagna, but that is not what the contest is for. In the same way, you are trying to be good and even if you are good, God doesn't judge us on the basis of goodness. His standard is righteousness and human beings cannot be righteous under their own strength and effort. Only God is righteous. So righteousness is imputed to man by faith. That is the only way you can receive it because no matter how good you are, goodness is not the standard; it is not what God is judging you for.

You are offering God your goodness, but God is offering you his righteousness. Only His righteousness will save you. Your goodness is a dead end and will only take you to hell.

God's word does NOT say that ALL of these judged will go to the lake of fire. If their fate was already sealed...meaning they did NOT accept Jesus as their savior, then why will there even be a judgement.

Like I said, you are not understanding the nature of this judgment. This is the sentencing phase. This is where they go to eternal destruction. They rejected Jesus or

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

God, not me, tells us what is needed to get into HIS kingdom. And He tells us that keeping His commandments is what is needed?

Do you agree?

But those who do His commandments are those who are redeemed. That is where obedience comes from. When Israel was in bondage/slavery, God did not give them a set of laws to keep in order for them to be saved out of bondage. He freed them first and then brought them to Sinai and gave them His laws.

The law was given to a redeemed community. It was on the grounds of their redemption

I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

(Exo 20:2)

Their obedience to God's commandments was grounded in their redemption from slavery/bondage. It was the result of their freedom, not the means of obtaining their freedom. In the same way, we are set free from the bondage of sin in order to be free to serve God. Sin keeps us from serving God. Jesus set us free in order that we could serve Him. Our obedience is grounded in our redemption from the slavery/bondage to sin.

[Guest shiloh357]

That's because keeping God's laws WON'T give you salvation. Salvation is a gift, but you are so caught up in your false teachings, you can't see the truth. Your best isn't good enough. You are not good enough. You cannot please God in your own efforts.

But God's word tells us if we KEEP His commandments we will have the right to the tree of life. Are you saying that God is lying when He tell us the following?

No, I am saying that you are fixated on only one set of Scriptures and that you lack the hermeneutic skills to properly understand the Word of God on this issue. I am saying that you are not good enough to please God under your own efforts and that if you would study all of what God has to say, you would find that you are sorely mistaken and are promoting a false gospel.

[Eccl12v13]

God's word does not say what you claim. It does NOT say that these being judged for NOT accepting Christ as their savior. It says they are being judged based upon their WORKS...not faith or acceptance of Jesus Christ!

How do you get, what you claim from this;

"...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

and,

"...and they were judged every man according to their works."

Prove from scriptures that these are being judged based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ?

I don't think you understand the nature of this judgment. This is not judgment in the sense that God is weighing them in the balance to see if they are good enough to go to heaven. They are coming before the throne to be sentenced and cast into the lake of fire. They chose continued separation from God and now they are standing at the throne to receive the final sentence and to go to their eternal destruction. If a person is standing at THIS throne, there is no hope; they are not saved. There is not ONE person who is a Christian that will appear at THIS throne of judgment.

If what you claim is true then WHY are they being judged? That does not make any sense!

God's word does nOT say that ALL that are judged here WILL go into the lake of fire! Where does it say this in God's word? Why even have a judgement if that were the case!

Even when Jesus returns to gather HIs saints He would have already determined if we are worthy or not. Do you not think He will use some sore of guide to determine this\? ANd do you think the guide that He uses will be DIFFERENT from what He uses to judge these? NO!

Where does it say that these are being judged based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ? God's word does NOT say what is being claimed here!

This is why I continue to bring this up. You all are saying things that is NOT supported by scriptures!

.

[Guest shiloh357]

If what you claim is true then WHY are they being judged? That does not make any sense!

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I have already explained; it is not a "judgment" to see how good they are. It is the sentencing phase. It really is simple.

God's word does nOT say that ALL that are judged here WILL go into the lake of fire! Where does it say this in God's word? Why even have a judgement if that were the case!

Everyone in THAT particular judgment will be cast into the lake of fire. They are receiving the condemnation of the law.

Even when Jesus returns to gather HIs saints He would have already determined if we are worthy or not. Do you not think He will use some sore of guide to determine this\?

Oh that has already been determined. The answer is that no one is worthy. If we could be "worthy" we would not Jesus in the first place. Jesus died for sinners, not for the worthy.

ANd do you think the guide that He uses will be DIFFERENT from what He uses to judge these? NO!

I agree. The guide is very simple: Is your name written in the Book of Life? Did you receive Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Where does it say that these are being judged based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ? God's word does NOT say what is being claimed here!

It says that their names have to be written in the Book of Life. Only those who receive Jesus have their names written in that book. Those who reject Jesus AND those who think that their good works will give them salvation (like you) are going to end up in the lake of fire.

This is why I continue to bring this up. You all are saying things that is NOT supported by scriptures!

I have shown you plenty of Scripture and you have ignored most of it and keep regurgitating the same passsages over and over and you keep making the same flawed arguments over and over. You are the one who can't support their position with Scripture.

[enoob57]

What makes you think he wasn't sanctified?

Chesterton I am at a loss to comment here! This is not to make you feel silly but what work can a man do hung on a cross toward sanctification?

Heb 12:14

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Who 'IS' the only Holy One ever to walk this earth? Christ correct? How then can you or I be Holy? We were born in sin,

We ask Christ to save us but still sin! I am grieved that I cannot Love Him in fullness of perfect obedience but I fail! Don't you? How then shall we obtain this Holiness?

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Yes within me 'IS' a new heart that desires God and the things of God, YET, I sin in this body! Rom 7 moving into 8 tells us why all this is so and the perfect is IN CHRIST and that Which He created in us-

I am going to put into the reasoning here: When Jesus answered my calling out to Him to save me- He cause a new created being/heart within me and placed The Holy Spirit of God within that New Area of Being within. Infantile in essence and in need of the Word of God to feed me and to grow up into sanctified usefulness to God's leading by The Holy Spirit... In Love my Lord has told me I will have failings when I do not want to fail and I will even practice sin all the while not wanting to be disobedient to Him whom I love! Then He tells me why this is happening:

God tells me my body is not redeemed and it is to remain engaged with the world and its evil desires... 'Let the war begin')

He has done this so I may understand sin and why it is wrong and just how ugly I was, am and will be in that state. As I learn of righteousness and sinlessness of Christ I am drawn more effectively away from all that I have known here (sin and unrighteousness) to that of His Word of witness! For we do not have a perfect witness now here in flesh but 'IS' on the right hand of The Father! I am not pressured to perform so as to achieve eternal life for He has already gave that to me....in all this conflict I can have peace in that my assurance of being delivered from this flesh Is promised to me by God! The process of sanctification is coming into a Spiritual agreement, on a day by day assessment of fleshly things by The Spirit/spirit and finding comfort living outside of fleshy comfort in Spiritual Obedience as this forms the Words 'I LOVE YOU LORD' with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind despite the overwhelming influence of world and body that I am yet remaining in! I see it as an object lesson to further my ability to desire Him and Where He is more than here and what I am.... as I draw near to Him I am made more broken and contrite -due to the difference The Holy Spirit reveals of His Love and effort toward me and that of my own toward Him... It is in this light of reality-> if what ever you do in flesh you consider it worthy to place beside what He did in His flesh you will perish...!!!

Love, Steven

[Guest]

1 Corinthians 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Yeap!

You Are So Right!

It Was Paul Not Peter That Was The Apostle To The Gentles

Nice To Know Another Dear RCC Brother Finally Got It Right!

Now If One Could Just Forget Man's Lies And Believe

In Christ Jesus....

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:15-26

[Guest shiloh357]

Holiness does not happen in a moment, it is a process. It is the result of our cooperation with God's grace.

That is only partially correct. We are made holy the minute we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. We are sanctified and set apart (made Holy).

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

(1Co 6:11)

We are already sanctifed and set apart by God from the world to be His people. Yet there is the daily process of sanctification through which we are delievered from old habits and ways of living in order that we would be conformed into the image of Christ.

Yet, even that is a work of God, not a work of ourselves. It is God work within us.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(Php 2:13)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(Tit 3:4-7)

Salvation is not built upon a "cooperation with God's grace." That is not only an unbiblical unChristian concept, it is based on a flawed concept of what grace is. Grace is the favor of God offered to those who merit His contempt. Grace is also the ability to fulfill His commandments. Grace cannot "cooperated" with. Salvation is not a partnership between man and God. Salvation is about surrender, not cooperation. Grace is a gift that cannot earned or merited at all in whole or in part. You cannot cooperate with a gift, because a gift by definition is based solely on the goodwill of the giver. You can receive God's grace, or you can reject it. The idea of cooperating with God's grace is an extra-biblical concept and is not part of authentic Christianity.

If you think your works are earning you salvation in any way, you are NOT an authentic follower of Jesus Christ.

Holiness is a gift of God. We must strive for holiness, however. It should be our goal in life, as Paul makes clear. We must press on for the prize and lean on God's grace for perseverence.

That is a logical contradiction. Holiness is a gift. If so it cannot be strived for. You cannot earn a gift. Our goal is to live out holiness, not to earn it. Our goal is to surrender our will to the will of God so that Christ can live out his life through us. The "prize" is not salvation. The prize of the high calling of God is our reward for service, not salvation. It is because we are saved that we run the race. We don't run the race to be saved.

[Guest shiloh357]

We are saved by grace through faith and works. Since sin can destroy our faith, our actions do impact our salvation.

That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Eph 2:8-9)

Here we go with your ridiculous string of bible verses that only serve to demonstrate your incompetence overall ignorance of biblical truth:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

That verse was written in a context pertaining to, and in response to the Corinthian church's challenge to the authenticity of Paul's apostleship. He is merely throwing their accusations of him back in their face and telling them to examine themselves with the same scrutiny that they are using against him. He is not talking about losing salvation or working for salvation.

Titus 2:11

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

Yes, but this is referencing what the grace of God teaches CHRISTIANS. It is not about working for salvation. It is how saved people should be living. God's grace is not the absence of holiness. God's grace is is the expectation of holy living. Holiness is the fruit of grace, not the means by which salvation is obtained.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Heb 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

As for Rom. 8:13, authentic Christians don't live according to the sinful nature; it is not the way of a new creation. Paul is contrasting how sinners live vs. those who are authentic Christians. He is not warning them about losing salvation.

Hebrews 12:14 tells us that we cannot see God without holiness. The holiness we need cannot be produced by our efforts. The holiness we need to see God is that which only God can provide. What His holiness demands, His grace provides.

Romans 12

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Rom. 12:1-2 are commanded to BELIEVERS, not to people trying to earn salvation. Surrendering one's self as a living sacrifice is the outgrowth of having trusted in Christ. It is allusion to ancient priesthood and draws a parallel in that just as the priests of the ancient redeemed community offered sacrifices in thanks to God for His favor to Israel, likewise we offer ourselves as living sacrifices to God in thanks for salvation; not as a means of obtaining salvation. The sinner cannot offer anything to God. Only those who have been redeemed can do that.

As for Rom. 6:16... You are ommitting a lot of context.

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

(Rom 6:9-18)

In verses 5-8 we read:

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

(Rom 6:5-8)

Here Paul is telling us that just as we are united with Him in a like death to His, we will be united with Him in a like resurrection. Jesus died once to sin. We die once to sin. Look above at verse 9:

"We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."

It is through His death and being united with Him in His death that we are set free from sin, once-for-all just as He is free from death, once-for-all. We are to reckon our selves dead to sin and not let sin reign in our mortal bodies BECAUSE of our position in Christ. Verse 14 says:

"For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

Being "under the law" or "under grace" refers to our standing before God. NonChristians are under the law. That is the default position of man before God. It is through Christ's death on the cross and our union with Him in his death and resurrection that we are placed "under grace" and sin no longer has dominion over us. We have been united with Him in his death and in His resurrection and we are now under His grace. We no longer under the conemnation of the law. We are no longer members of Adam's race; we are taken out of Adam and placed in Christ. That has nothing to do with works and it can't be accomplished in our works. It can only occur through our union with Christ in his death and resurrection and that can only happen through faith.

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:11 Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

Where do either of those verses make the case that our works effect whether we are saved or not?

Galatians 6:8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

You keep regurgitating this verse as if it has never been addressed. This verse was written as a rebuke to the Galatians because they were trying to do good works in concert with faith in order to earn salvation. You are using a verse that was written to rebuke the very theology you are trying assert with it. The irony is so thick it could be cut with a knife. Paul's point to these people is that good works, works of the law only sow to the flesh. They were the seed of Abraham by faith (Gal.3). Those who depend, even in part, on good works are only sowing to the flesh and that brings destruction in the end.

God is not interested in you trying perform well enough for Him. You can't possibly do that. Your good works are not good enough and never will be. God's standard is righteousness and your best works cannot meet that standard; not by a longshot. There is no synthesis of works and faith because your works are stained with sin. God's standard is righteousness and the only person who ever met God's standard is Jesus. The first stage of salvation is the imputation of Christ's rightesousess to you. That is done solely by faith (Rom. 4) Just as Abraham was declared righteous by faith before he had done ANYTHING (Gen. 15), we are, likewise declared righteous on the same basis of faith.

James 1:15

Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Yeah and I fail to see where this verse is material to the issue.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Okay this is turning into yet another Catholic doctrine thread. This is going to stop, now, or I will shut down the thread. No questions asked, and I do not care who started it. I saw this coming as I saw the direction Chesterton was going already with the catholic doctrine of salvation by works and faith, not faith alone.

In answer to the OSAS question in the original OP I think the parable of the Sower explains it and unless I have missed it explains everything.

Luke 8(NKJV)

The Parable of the Sower

4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables

9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘ Seeing they may not see,

And hearing they may not understand.’

The Parable of the Sower Explained

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

So its about letting the Seed of the word of God grow and prudence fruit. All a person has to do is hold on to it and let it grow. Holding on by the strictest definition is a work but in this sense it is the difference of keeping a gift or throwing it away, or allowing it to be stolen. So can you lose your salvation? Well according to this yes, it can be stolen or choked out. You can choose not to let it grow.

Now if you hold on and let it bear fruit then you are saved. Again we do not work for salvation. We are given it. We can give it up. We can lost it by letting the world crowd it out. We do need to work out the salvation by fighting off thieves, and holding tight to it. So in that respect we do work and work out our salvation. For faith with out works is dead. However, its not the works that saves us, its the faith.

You see, Jesus says its being born of the spirit that saves us. So look at it this way. No one can work to be born. We are given life. It is up to us to keep it. We need to feed ourselves, and grow and learn, and protect ourselves. But yet it is no work of ours that makes us be born. There is no way for us to "Work" our way to life. Until we are born of the spirit we cannot live, we can not be saved and we can not be changed into a new creature. Once we are given the gift of salvation we are then Born.

Just like any child that is Born of the flesh, a person born of the spirit can lose that life. However that life is in and of itself is a gift. No one is saved by works. They are saved by grace through faith. They need to then work to keep their faith alive. People seem to be confused thinking that they have to work to become alive. This is simply not possible, nor is is biblical.

To make it fit with the Word you must do violence to it and take things out of context and ignore the rest of the chapter and book in which each verse is taken, not to mention the rest of the Bible.

This verse sums it up.

Ephesians 2

By Grace Through Faith

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We were dead, he made us alive, we can not work our way to alive from dead. That is impossible. You can work yourselves to death however, that is possible.