Orr v'emet Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 A person who believes we can lose our salvation can say, "It's not about our works but about if we reject Christ after accepting Him", however the implications of their beliefs, regardless of whta they say, is a salvation plan based on works. So the flip side is that we can accept Christ, maybe fall away and start living like the world, live in rebellion and unrepented sin, walk contrary to God's ways and still be able to spend eternity in heaven with God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 A person who believes we can lose our salvation can say, "It's not about our works but about if we reject Christ after accepting Him", however the implications of their beliefs, regardless of whta they say, is a salvation plan based on works. So the flip side is that we can accept Christ, maybe fall away and start living like the world, live in rebellion and unrepented sin, walk contrary to God's ways and still be able to spend eternity in heaven with God? Every sin is essentially rebelling against God. Do you confess every single sin? How do you know for sure? The problem with the argument against OSAS is that it's always based on extremes: "So you're saying Jeffrey Dahmer went to heaven if he got saved when he was 6?" or "You know Hitler claimed to be a Christian too!" Why use exaggerations? Is it because the argument falls apart if you don't? Because if we look at it in more simple terms it looks like this: Christian A: loves the Lord, but struggles with lust and pornography. Is working on overcoming it..but still struggles and falls. Tries to confess and remain in close fellowship with the Lord, but sometimes fails. One day, after viewing porn on the internet he gets in his car, is in an accident and killed. Does he go to heaven? If you say no...why? And how is he different than any of the rest of us who sin on a daily basis? If salvation isn't secure, then we are all in danger of losing it at any given moment. At what point did he "lose" his salvation? How long is the "grace period" a person has to repent before their salvation is revoked? Extreme scenarios (such as "living like the devil") break down when you consider that everytime we sin we are turning our backs on God. We all do it, even believers...daily. Pride, gossip, greed, lust, hate....even if only occuring in the mind are sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 BTW, I don't think any of us who believe in eternal security would promote living like the devil and you're all okay. That's just a total misunderstanding of security. I believe wholeheartedly that we are called to pursue a godly and holy life. I believe the very fact that I'm forgiven is what compels me to do so (Luke 7:47;2 Cor. 5:14). I don't believe my salvation is dependent upon anything I can do. However I believe my actions will reflect a forgiven heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orr v'emet Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 Every sin is essentially rebelling against God. Do you confess every single sin? How do you know for sure? This is simply a matter of being sensitive to the Holy Spirit's conviction on your life. I will also say that I do also pray for forgivness for the sins of "omission" that I commit. I know without a doubt that God knows my heart and knows that above all else I desire to be in a right relationship with Him at all times, therefore yes, I do believe that I confess every sin. Christian A: loves the Lord, but struggles with lust and pornography. Is working on overcoming it..but still struggles and falls. Tries to confess and remain in close fellowship with the Lord, but sometimes fails. One day, after viewing porn on the internet he gets in his car, is in an accident and killed. Does he go to heaven? Yes, this person is clearly living a life trying his best to please God. We all struggle with sin. If we didn't we wouldn't be human. The "rebellion" that I refer to is a person who was once saved then says ok (whether a conscious decision or not), I'm gonna live the way I want. I will cuss, sleep around, lie, cheat whatever and it doesn't matter because I accepted Christ at some point in time. That's rebellion. That's not a heart that is focused on pleasing his Savior and living a godly life. That's the difference. Hope that clears up the misconception of what some think we are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orr v'emet Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 BTW, I don't think any of us who believe in eternal security would promote living like the devil and you're all okay. That's just a total misunderstanding of security. I believe wholeheartedly that we are called to pursue a godly and holy life. I believe the very fact that I'm forgiven is what compels me to do so (Luke 7:47;2 Cor. 5:14). I don't believe my salvation is dependent upon anything I can do. However I believe my actions will reflect a forgiven heart. Yup! Already addressed on page 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 A person who believes we can lose our salvation can say, "It's not about our works but about if we reject Christ after accepting Him", however the implications of their beliefs, regardless of whta they say, is a salvation plan based on works. So the flip side is that we can accept Christ, maybe fall away and start living like the world, live in rebellion and unrepented sin, walk contrary to God's ways and still be able to spend eternity in heaven with God? The problem with this train of thought is my critique on the ability to lose one's salvation has theological and unaffected implications. In other words, the implications of my critique cannot be changed nor affected by our own actions. The implications are solid. The implications of your critique can be affected by our actions and thoughts. The implications are not concrete but abstract, and likewise are not going to happen to everyone that takes on the belief of eternal security. Plus, you list a hypothetical. Those who believe in eternal security, while we beleive we can fall away for a while, God will always bring those who belong to Him back to Him. This is proven in the scriptures many times. Likewise, we also believe that a peson who truly accepts Christ will: A) Be miserable during this time they are away B) Not be able to stand it C) Attempt to avoid this lifestyle in the first place We believe they are a new creation, thus they will avoid this lifestyle, and if in it, will be brought out of this lifestyle eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 184 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/09/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 SALVATION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orr v'emet Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 SJ, your comments are based on your opinion as mine are of mine based on what we read from scripture. You have previously said on another topic: I do come across with a "I'm right you're wrong attitude". The reason for this is that I believe whole-heartedly that I'm right. Given that I now know this about you I respectfully will have to agree to disagree with you on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2004 SJ, your comments are based on your opinion as mine are of mine based on what we read from scripture. You have previously said on another topic: I do come across with a "I'm right you're wrong attitude". The reason for this is that I believe whole-heartedly that I'm right. Given that I now know this about you I respectfully will have to agree to disagree with you on this subject. You're looking at my comments in a vacuum KMB. If you want, I can post scripture too. The fact is, I've studied on this issue and do find it essential. Likewise, you took my quote out of context as I was refering to essentials, not to everything. Nice try though. I love how when people have nothing else to say they try and make it personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTriez Posted October 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,478 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1972 Share Posted October 6, 2004 The fact is, I've studied on this issue and do find it essential. So your research makes you right & everyone else wrong.....do you see the arrogance in that statement Joel Is there a chance you..... could be wrong ? :x: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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