About the moral law

[Caste]

I don't know if this is the right section for the topic so, feel free to move it as you wish.

I took my time to read many conversations about the law and how it coud prove God. Now, I'm not intersted in the opinion of non-believers. I only wish to know that of Christians: do you really believe it? Do you really believe that God can be proved with moral law?

Ok, before You answer, I give you my opinion, so that anyone can understand why I'm asking it: I don't think that the moral law can prove God. I don't think that God can be proved logically in any way. I'm not trying to rise controversies, It's just that, because I think It's really important to understan what we believe and *why* I'm really curious.

So, please, explain yourselves!

[Guest]

.... I don't think that God can be proved logically in any way....

God

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. John 16:7-11

Has Given

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:5-6

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

All Men Proof Enough

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psalms 19:1-3

Yet Most Men Will Illogically Turn Away

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

From God's Love

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Shame~!

[Caste]

And on that we totally agree, Htese are the same things I say but, my question is why, wherever I look, people try to prove God with logic? With Human logic, I mean. This is what I'm asking!

[xero]

Christ didnt come to abolish the law but to fulfill and Jesus' life is the example of the law perfected. I dont mean to be insulting but saying God cant be understood through logic is illogical. Jesus is the Word which in Greek is Logos, care to guess the etymology (source) of the term logic? If you said logos youre right on target which is good because sin means to miss the mark and were reasoning to get the point! Babel where is thy confusion? lol Babel comes from the Hebrew bablu which means confusion. (Its an inside joke and I invited you all into my peace/piece of mind). Now lets discuss law which comes from lego, like the building blocks (coincidence?), hence the term legal, and the pun of the saying you dont have a LEG to stand on (which is to say you dont have a LEGitimate reason), anyway lego is Latin and comes from the Greek legein i.e. to speak. Logos as a suffix is logy, which means the study of, whereas Nomos becomes nomy: the law of. Nomos: law shares its etymology with nomen: name. The Word is a name of God. That last one is a bit of a stretch but still applicable. This just logical wordplay, lol, lets move on to law in action. Jesus said love your enemies pray for those who persecute you. How better an example of loving an enemy and praying for those that persecute you than when Jesus prayed for His murderers "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". He healed the soldier who had his ear cut off in His apprehension. He taught us that the greatest commandment is to love God with all our hearts all our minds and all our souls, and the second which is like it, to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. This is why Christ came first to Israel, Gods chosen, complying to the will of the Father even though the gentile nations would have welcomed Jesus as Christ had he performed the same miracles in their borders (see Luke 10:13) but once Stephen was stoned the gospel was spread to the gentile neighbors of Israel. Love your neighbor as you love yourself indeed. There are countless examples in the Bible of Gods law in effect and same can be said about daily life. "He who leads into captivity goes into captivity", study history and you will see this law in effect, "the wages of sin are death", thats all to obvious, "to he who has even more will be given him to he who has not even what he has will be taken away", countless examples of this in reality. I know those passages have context they are tied to but Gods laws arent bound by context they are immutable laws which are in reality just one law, LOVE. Do unto others as you would have done unto you for that is the law and the prophets. As you judge so you shall be judged. See the logical consistancy? There is no flaw in Gods righteous judgement only in mans understanding and expression of His law. Alright Ive written alot of info and many words darkens counsel so Ill finish with this, the Logos is Logic and diaLOGue is the Way to the Truth and the Light of reason, purpose and the means to understand the me-aning of what me means. See how awesome the Word is?!!!

[Caste]

Christ didnt come to abolish the law but to fulfill and Jesus' life is the example of the law perfected. I dont mean to be insulting but saying God cant be understood through logic is illogical. Jesus is the Word which in Greek is Logos, care to guess the etymology (source) of the term logic? If you said logos youre right on target which is good because sin means to miss the mark and were reasoning to get the point! Babel where is thy confusion? lol Babel comes from the Hebrew bablu which means confusion. (Its an inside joke and I invited you all into my peace/piece of mind). Now lets discuss law which comes from lego, like the building blocks (coincidence?), hence the term legal, and the pun of the saying you dont have a LEG to stand on (which is to say you dont have a LEGitimate reason), anyway lego is Latin and comes from the Greek legein i.e. to speak. Logos as a suffix is logy, which means the study of, whereas Nomos becomes nomy: the law of. Nomos: law shares its etymology with nomen: name. The Word is a name of God. That last one is a bit of a stretch but still applicable. This just logical wordplay, lol, lets move on to law in action. Jesus said love your enemies pray for those who persecute you. How better an example of loving an enemy and praying for those that persecute you than when Jesus prayed for His murderers "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". He healed the soldier who had his ear cut off in His apprehension. He taught us that the greatest commandment is to love God with all our hearts all our minds and all our souls, and the second which is like it, to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. This is why Christ came first to Israel, Gods chosen, complying to the will of the Father even though the gentile nations would have welcomed Jesus as Christ had he performed the same miracles in their borders (see Luke 10:13) but once Stephen was stoned the gospel was spread to the gentile neighbors of Israel. Love your neighbor as you love yourself indeed. There are countless examples in the Bible of Gods law in effect and same can be said about daily life. "He who leads into captivity goes into captivity", study history and you will see this law in effect, "the wages of sin are death", thats all to obvious, "to he who has even more will be given him to he who has not even what he has will be taken away", countless examples of this in reality. I know those passages have context they are tied to but Gods laws arent bound by context they are immutable laws which are in reality just one law, LOVE. Do unto others as you would have done unto you for that is the law and the prophets. As you judge so you shall be judged. See the logical consistancy? There is no flaw in Gods righteous judgement only in mans understanding and expression of His law. Alright Ive written alot of info and many words darkens counsel so Ill finish with this, the Logos is Logic and diaLOGue is the Way to the Truth and the Light of reason, purpose and the means to understand the me-aning of what me means. See how awesome the Word is?!!!

ehehe I really appreciated all your jokes, I've not the capability to do the same in a foreign language, but It's similar to what I do in my country's language (I have to admit that I've had to read twice the part about Babel to get it! )

My problem with logic is that many times I find It's misused, because, as you said, the LOGOS (even its concept) is easily misunderstood.

what i think is that, many times, God is treated as something that must be proved by reasoning and the use of logic rules. The problem I see in this is that *if* we really want to speak about God with logic terminology, we cannot consider it as something to be proved because, to be proved are Theories.

To me God is beyond logic (again, I'm speaking about logic as the set of reasoning rules) or, at least, He can be no other than the starting point.

To make it clear let me make an example: in Euclidean geometry you have 5 axioms (self-evident truths) to start with, then you can derive the rules and theorems by them. I believe that the problem with trying to prove God is that, in this kind of language, He is the Axiom, and you cannot prove an axiom.

Just to be more clear, I think that God is a self-evident truth, and I'm pretty sure that anyone here agrees with me. What I'm questioning is if it's convenient trying to prove Him.

[Holy Joe]

Everything we do is driven by law. The law dictates even the minute tasks of everyday life.

For instance – Don’t steal, or pay the priceif you do

Don’t kill or pay the price if you do

Don’t chase the neighbors wife.or pay the price if you do

The law says set the alarm so you may be at work on time or pay the consequences of not doing so..

The law says wear shoes or you will pay the consequences of not doing so.

The law says put gas in car, put key in car start car put car in gear don’t break speed limit, stop at stop signs, signal turns, go to grocery store, eat the food you bough, follow the law in preparation of the food.

Every task you encounter is law driven, and we establish the law. Break any one of them and you pay for doing so.

Now on the other hand is another set of laws.

Walk as He walks,

Let this same mind be in you who was in Christ Jesus,

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect

Let this same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus.

Heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in tongues,

Be one with God as Jesus was one with Him, He in you and you in Him as one.

Which of these laws above and below is more likely to be broken?

The 10 laws is for those who do not know God personally, it is for to sustain the flesh man from destroying himself. and it is impossible to keep the whole law. Break any one of them and you are guilty of all -- especially in the latter of these laws I just wrote. Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Mature) Now how many break that law?

Joe

[xero]

@Caste Theory. That says it all doesnt it? lol Im certain that anyone who claims need of proof has proven already that they dont know the truth. But its always fun to cross swords with anyone willing to spar. Perhaps you can sharpen their blade and help them cut through the fog.