Baptism of Repentance

[Orr v'emet]

LivinForHisGlory.

I don't know if you are talking to me in this post, posted: Oct 21 2004, 05:46 PM, but seeing as a quote from me is used I will take it to be so.

You say; With all due respect I don't want to enter this conversation with you.

You say; How do you argue with that?

What's it to be then?

johnp.

Yes, John, I was referring to you. The conversation I don't want to enter is that of predestination...to me it has little bearing simply because I don't find it consistant with God's nature or biblical principles. I was inquiring about your response however to the verses that I commented on about the sacrifice that God expects of us.

[stevehut]

So we are all agreed if a five year old child feels remorseful about all the sins they have committed, however small, knows they have sinnned against GOD, and wants to TRUST JESUS, to wash their sins away, and take them to heaven, that they should be encouraged to do this?

Yup. Absolutely.

But as I look at my 5 year-old son, I don't think he has the emotional maturity to do so.

[johnP]

Hello LivinForHisGlory.

Psalm 51:17 says:

The sacrifice you want is a broken spirit.

A broken and repentant heart, O God, you will not despise.

I believe in repentance I just don't believe that repentance saves. I believe in repentance I just don't believe repentance is possible for the unregenerate.

He has my broken spirit. He also has the truth from me in that I confess that my repentance needs repenting of.

Those who say that they did not know what sin was 'until' still don't know what sin is and those that are selfrighteous who think they can produce perfect repentance need to repent of that. If it is not perfect then it is sin. We repent in sin with sin but we are learning about ourselves in that knowledge. If it is not perfect repentance then it is not repentance or, repentance is acceptable from a five year old who will repent of that repentance when he has more knowledge of himself. It cannot be meritorious because we are sinners. It is however accepted by our Father because He loves us. Do you get what I mean? Our repentance is only acceptable to God on the basis of Christ's sacrifice. Our sins are forgiven but we are still sinners.

To think that God requires nothing of us because He chose us is crazy.

I agree with you completely.

The conversation I don't want to enter is that of predestination...

I understand. I will try my best to keep off the subject as much as possible but it is very hard here. Repentance is being put forward as a way of salvation so Calvinism will be present.

I'm inclining to the idea that repentance, that is; A turning around from not believing to a believing is a repentance. It is also regeneration. A repentance not to be repented of. Same thing? The moment I met Jesus I believed in Him whereas the moment before I did not.

johnp.

[Orr v'emet]

Hello LivinForHisGlory.

Psalm 51:17 says:

The sacrifice you want is a broken spirit.

A broken and repentant heart, O God, you will not despise.

I believe in repentance I just don't believe that repentance saves. I believe in repentance I just don't believe repentance is possible for the unregenerate.

He has my broken spirit. He also has the truth from me in that I confess that my repentance needs repenting of.

Those who say that they did not know what sin was 'until' still don't know what sin is and those that are selfrighteous who think they can produce perfect repentance need to repent of that. If it is not perfect then it is sin. We repent in sin with sin but we are learning about ourselves in that knowledge. If it is not perfect repentance then it is not repentance or, repentance is acceptable from a five year old who will repent of that repentance when he has more knowledge of himself. It cannot be meritorious because we are sinners. It is however accepted by our Father because He loves us. Do you get what I mean? Our repentance is only acceptable to God on the basis of Christ's sacrifice. Our sins are forgiven but we are still sinners.

To think that God requires nothing of us because He chose us is crazy.

I agree with you completely.

The conversation I don't want to enter is that of predestination...

I understand. I will try my best to keep off the subject as much as possible but it is very hard here. Repentance is being put forward as a way of salvation so Calvinism will be present.

I'm inclining to the idea that repentance, that is; A turning around from not believing to a believing is a repentance. It is also regeneration. A repentance not to be repented of. Same thing? The moment I met Jesus I believed in Him whereas the moment before I did not.

johnp.

Okay...yeah... Not getting what your saying at all. It could be that it's friday, I'm at work with a million things going on in my head but I honestly don't know that point you are trying to make...

[tsth]

Dear john,

Don't mean to be contentious, but the way I "hear" it from you, is that you have NO obligation to the Lord at all. That the relationship with Christ is solely one-sided, and you have no inclination of your own, to love Christ. Only due to His command that you love Him, will you love Him. Yes, I believe it is because He first loved us, that we are able to love, but we love, because we recognize His Goodness/Love. He reveals love. He also reveals what is not love. I just don't believe that we were made without the ability to return love. That is why I believe we were given the ability to have the understanding of good and evil, so that we could choose this day, Whom we will serve/love. Why on earth do you think that we were reprimanded over our choices? I'm not saying that we can DO/ACCOMPLISH good on our own, but we CAN recognize the difference between good and evil, and once recognized which one WE ARE, we can then take hold of the Power of Jesus Christ to cleanse us, by believing in Him/His Word. We have a part in this relationship john, that's why it is called a new COVENANT. A covenant means 2 parties.

What is your part in the relationship?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[johnP]

Hello Suzanne.

Don't mean to be contentious...

We are coming from opposite positions, there is bound to be friction. God will teach us through that to love one another if we stick at it. To respect one another in our opposition is a participation in the Kingdom.

...but the way I "hear" it from you, is that you have NO obligation to the Lord at all.

RO 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The same One in you is also in me.

That the relationship with Christ is solely one-sided, and you have no inclination of your own, to love Christ.

I would like to know all the answers myself. I work towards a greater knowledge with persistance and ...by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. 1 Cor 15:10-11.

I don't think we have an inclination of our own. If we love Him so much why do we wander so often?

I just don't believe that we were made without the ability to return love.

Whatever is returned to God must have come from God. If God wills in our will to love Him then that love is real love willed by us. I get all the benefits of it and feel it and want it forever. I cannot make apologies for believing this and it is not as if I've just invented a thing. I know I have very good company in my beliefs.

That is why I believe we were given the ability to have the understanding of good and evil, so that we could choose this day, Whom we will serve/love.

With respect Suzanne you must face those scriptures and come to some sort of terms with them. Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

The only course for us is to hate Him more as we are bound by our fallen nature and helpless to it's power. You don't want to believe that. That is normal. I am not trying to convince you but just answer your questions. The Holy Spirit decides what you believe.

Why on earth do you think that we were reprimanded over our choices?

Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What is your part in the relationship?

I observe.

The sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. Gal 5:17.

We do not do what we want is a fact. We are obsevers and paticipate according to the power of the Holy Spirit. All men participate in a relationship with God determined by God.

I witness my Father at work in everything that comes before me. I ask myself why, in which way is this good for me, what can I learn.

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

He made His light shine in my heart. He who started it will see it through to completion. I am a recipient of God's love because of His will because it was His will that I should be made for noble purposes.

johnp.

[johnP]

Hello horizoneast.

It's good to meet you.

I just don't believe repentance is possible for the unregenerate.

Do you? Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

I just don't believe repentance saves. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:8-9.

In John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me keep My commandments."

That 'if', does that mean that Jesus did not know if the disciples loved Him?

JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

There is no question about it. We will obey. If we love Him. That's what love is isn't it? To consider the other better than yourself.

Jesus says in Luke 13:3, "I tell you, no; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Yes but what is repent? The King of King's has the right and power to to demand allegiance with threats. We are rebels. There is no choice being offered. Do as you are told or go to Hell. It says this to law breakers and this is all that it says. It says nothing about ability except; ISA 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

MT 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

All people everywhere are commanded of God to repent. The command is given to the unregenerate. Peter states below that repentance comes before the remission on sins.

The command is given to the unregenerate but not the ability to obey. God says, "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Rom 8:7-8.

So if a person responds it is God working in him to will to do God's will. Many are called but few chosen. Those who refuse to do God's will after hearing it will increase their sin and receive the due penalty for it. God is not only not obliged to give us anything He actually says He has the right to make some for the fire and some for Heaven. Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:38

'that repentance comes before the remission of sins.' If you read it that way then baptism also comes before remission of sins. Is this what you believe?

AC 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."

Calling people to repentance is part of the gathering but it is not useful for salvation as to it's merits but shows God at work in the hearts of men. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Repentance is eliminated by Rom 9:15 as a means to salvation except that God works His work in men's hearts to respond. He does this in many ways.

Those that respond are responding to God in a positive way but the mind of a sinful man is at emnity with God. It will not submit. Rom 8:7-8. It's by grace that people are saved, through faith and this not from ourselves. A gift. Eph 2:8-9. It is by faith, not repentance or baptism. Here I stand.

To believe that Christ died for our sins is salvation and is the only way to salvation.

Teaching salvation by repentance, unless that repentance is believing that Christ died for our sins, is a false teaching.

How's that?

johnp.

[johnP]

Hello LivinForHisGlory.

Not getting what your saying at all. It could be that it's friday, I'm at work with a million things going on in my head but I honestly don't know that point you are trying to make...

You will have to be specific.

johnp.

[O'Dannyboy]

That is why I believe we were given the ability to have the understanding of good and evil, so that we could choose this day, Whom we will serve/love.

This knowledge of good and evil we have is not a gift, but a curse. It was the Serpant who decieved Eve into giving the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge to Adam where by they both ate. As our share of this curse we are born into sin being fully aware of the difference. Even a newborn understands facial expressions. A smile will make them smile just as a scowl will make them cry. And to look into a childs eyes is like looking through a window unto heaven. The love and trust of a child knows no limit. Its this kind of love and trust that we can only hope to show to Our Father in Heaven. And when he chastens us, we love him the same, for we know he does this out of love.

We are baptised of water as a testimate of our love and obediance. But to be baptised of the spirit is the cleansing for the walk with him.

1 Peter 3:21

[Fr Chuck]

It was water baptism for the forgiveness of ones sin. But without Christ, it was only a taste of what was to come.

The Hewbre ( Jewish) people were very use to "baptism" in one form, ritural cleansing for the outward and the temporary clean needed to enter into the temple area.

So John took this practice further, into the cleansing of the sin in the persons life.

Since of course the temple priest beleived only they held the power of forgiveness though sacrifice, this would have been a beleif they would not have accepted.

The commom people, many who for many reasons, may have been denied access to the temple, or perhaps could not afford to be forgiven, would have flocked to John.