tsth Posted October 23, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 The Hewbre ( Jewish) people were very use to "baptism" in one form, ritural cleansing for the outward and the temporary clean needed to enter into the temple area. Dear Fr Chuck, Could you post Scriptures that show that? I'm just wondering, as I don't recall that in Scriptures and would like to read it. Thanks. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Dannyboy Posted October 24, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 156 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,454 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1969 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnP Posted October 24, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/28/1950 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hello Fr Chuck. So John took this practice further, into the cleansing of the sin in the persons life. Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Jesus not John. Here's a good argument; Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Faith must come first because God is not pleased unless faith is present. Faith, a very small gap, repentance. That's a winner ain't it? johnp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnP Posted October 24, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/28/1950 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Suzanne. I can't remember where I got this from. I found it the other night and cut and saved it. John was a Levite (a priest actually) after his father. Numbers 8:6-7 we read: "Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of expiation upon them." Whether or not this ritual was repeated over and over in each generation, all the Levites in history were represented at this one cleansing act. Hebrews 9 speaks of the figures of the OT system. Verse 10 speaks expressly of "diverse baptisms" [literally], referring to the different ceremonial washings or cleansings of the the OT administration, and the Hebrews writer points to several examples. Jay Adams draws attention to the following cross-references: Hebrews 9:13 --- Numbers 19:17-18 "sprinkling" Hebrews 9:19 --- Exodus 24:6, 8 "sprinkling" Hebrews 9:21 --- Leviticus 8:19; 16:14 "sprinkling" I haven't check any of this out. johnp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 24, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hello Fr Chuck. So John took this practice further, into the cleansing of the sin in the persons life. Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Jesus not John. Here's a good argument; Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Faith must come first because God is not pleased unless faith is present. Faith, a very small gap, repentance. That's a winner ain't it? johnp. Dear johnp, Your comment about Jesus/John above, still takes me back to my original posting, and the passages below with regard to "John" and "Jesus". I realize that salvation is NOT through John, but there was something significant about the "baptism of repentance". See the Luke passage below, or look at my very first post on this thread. There is still a connection here and it must be a vital one, as even Jesus makes reference to it: Luke 7:28 28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. P.S. - thanks for the OT baptism references, but the "sprinkling" is not the same as the baptism that John did. I'm talking about full immersion as John and Jesus did. But, I'll try to take a look at those and see if there's anything else regarding immersion. The closest thing I can think of is Naaman, but I don't think that's the same? Do you? In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Christian baptism is the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 So is this obsolete too? The Scriptures say it will be in the coming Day of the Lord. Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the Lord of hosts. Are you sure? In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted October 25, 2004 So is this obsolete too? The Scriptures say it will be in the coming Day of the Lord. Huh? These are prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of John the Baptist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnP Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/28/1950 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Suzanne. I have used some of horizoneast's posts for quotes. Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1 will be fulfilled completely when Elijah comes back. MAL 3:1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. MAL 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." Jesus comes twice to us. Once carrying salvation the second to wind things up. John's baptism was transitory and we may see Elijah calling people to a baptism of repentance as a preparation for the second coming. John preached concerning the coming kingdom and the need to repent and he was administering a baptism that was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnP Posted October 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/28/1950 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Hello horizoneast. I not only believe it is possible for the unsaved to repent but I believe it is necessary in order for one to have his/her sins forgiven. We should be having some fun in the future then. The sinner has the obligation to personally do the repenting. This is evidenced by the fact that the sinner is commanded to discharge his responsibility (Acts 2:38). I say that men are saved by grace. I mean that men are saved by God willing in their will to do His will. That, when His will is to gather in one of His children, He moves the person irresistably towards Jesus and makes him a son. This is accomplished in the man because the man is dead in his sins. He is hostile to God and cannot do as God wants. That is regeneration and from regeneration comes the forgiveness of sins. Repentance can only come after regeneration because only a spiritually living being is recognised by God. He does not listen to sinners, they are dead. We must believe in Jesus before we do anything else or we won't repent properly. We cannot ask God for forgiveness we must ask Jesus as He is the mediator and to ask Jesus is to believe in Jesus. To believe in Jesus is therefore prerequisite to repentance. To believe in Jesus is faith and faith is needed to please God. Repentance is a dangerous thing! It can lead to death if you get it wrong. It's the difference between Peter and Judas. Faith and repentance are the same thing when repentance is viewed as a turning to Jesus. This is evidenced by the fact that the sinner is commanded to discharge his responsibility (Acts 2:38). The sinner does have the responsibilty to repent and turn to God. That we are held to account for ourselves is beyond dispute. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength, Duet 6:5, is still in operation. As you said, "This knowledge of good and evil we have is not a gift, but a curse." And a curse it was. It enabled us to know right from wrong but left us unable to do right. That's right is it not? Adam was perfect yet was unable to do God's will. Well he failed the test. Our responsibilty cannot be discharged by us because we are sinners. That is not God's problem. God is Sovereign and commands. That we can't obey is our problem. That is what we should tell people. The need for Christ is paramount. Getting repentance wrong here leads to death. We must make sure what baptism means. In the telling to people that they can be sure their repentance has merit you have told them salvation is by works. This one from O'Dannyboy, 'Mark 1:4Â John came baptizing (1) in the wilderness and preaching the baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins' We must make sure what his preaching was about. What he meant by repentance. Is it shorthand for, "... "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."? A preaching of the One to come. I'm sure John preached Christ and belief in Him. JN 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. Good old Spurgeon. I know him well. These two things act and react upon each other: the man who is forgiven, therefore repents; and the man who repents is also most assuredly forgiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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