50 Evidences for the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

[Guest danrusdad]

1. THE METHOD OF LITERAL INTERPRETATION  it does not spiritualize away the plain meaning of the Scriptures ( 2 Tim 2:15, 3:16, 2 Peter 1:19-21)

Response to #1. I have no problem with a literal interpretation of the scriptures. In fact, I think most pre-wrathers, like myself, interpret MORE literally than most pre-tribbers. For example, in Revelation 6, the 5th seal martyrs are clearly WAITING for God

[irishcowboy]

Mike,

I don't understand how you pulled this out of my last post but hey, you would make a great republican.

what makes you believe that God will not send humans to hell? that He will not destroy humans that do not hold up their end of the covenant????

I need to remind you that the topic of discussion isn't hell. Neither is it judgement of any kind. Other than a blessing to the one being raptured, no other person will suffer for going to be with the Lord. There isn't one scripture that indicates that. God's judgements come as an act of righteous indignation, not reckless ambition. There is no scriptural reason to hermeneutically tie the rapture to any of those judgement scriptures you posted. There are no scriptures to indicate the rapture will recklessly steal, kill, and destroy! Blessings will be the result for the ones who go to be with Christ. And mankind will not suffer for it. You twist the scriptures and you believe those who have twisted them for you. Good job!

[irishcowboy]

I was not meaning to call you a universalist,

I had a house guest one time that was....... swore up and down satan would not win a single soul, cause of a couple verses stating ...... God doesnt want to loose any to satan, and that every knee will bow and every tongue confess......

this man knew the words..... but did not know the Word.... he had a great memory for verse, but had no idea what it ment, nor did he have any relationship......

a walking Bible, if you would..... had more memorization completed then anyone else i have ever known, that is what he spent his life doing, but had no relationship, and did not walk anywhere near what his talk was.....

friend, we are not to give up fellowship, we are suppose to gather together and worship......

this eschatoloty stuff, it is great, but really it was not for us to use for believers, it was for us to use for the unbelievers...... for the Believers, this end time stuff will not matter.... for they will be ground in the Word and they have a relationship, that will continue on thru out all eternity......

for the unbeliever, they are the ones that really need the warnings......

i personally dont believe that people here would like to see several books worth of notes posted here....... some from my own studies, some from the Berean School of the Bible, some from sermons, some from sunday school, some from revelation given thru prophecy and tongues and interpretation......

as far as "going to church" isnt that a bit unbiblical?????? the act of "going" to church........

wouldn't it be better if our action words were: WE ARE THE CHURCH

instead of we go to church?????

mike

[O'Dannyboy]

Matthew 16:6 Jesus said to them,

[oliveoil]

It is good to have forum like these where people of faith can decuss Gods word and hopefully grow in the knowledge of said subject. Yet I see this is difficult for some, for we tend to hold on to the old with a tight fist . I for one love reading each ones opinion, for after 30 years of studying Gods word I've found the more I learn it only shows me that much more I don't know. For as long as I can remember I believed christians would go through the trib. I preached it and now in the light of world events I will have to say I truthfully don't know. I now belong to a new club, the one of I am still learning, teach me oh lord for my understanding is limited. This is one scrip I struggle with in trying to keep my post trib view. Rev 19:14 Jesus comes riding on a white horse, he has a army with him. Saints for sure for they are clothed in fine linen, clean and white. In verse 7 and 8 John tells us the linen is the righteousness of the saints. I am sure no one could argue with that. Now my question is this if all the saints are still here, not having been raptured and all the dead ones are still here on earth for sure their bodies are here. Then who is these people Jesus has with him. They can't be dead saints for there hasn't been a resurrection yet. Their bodies are still on earth. A Spirit would have no need for clothing. Please don't say their clothing is spiritual for that would be a stretch for sure. My son died recently and upon him being lowered into the ground I had to come to grips with the fact that he was gone, to be with the lord but his body was left here to go back to dust. I hated that for the two went together. He needed his body to be my son, to me anyway. It was at that moment I rejoiced for I could see the power of the resurrection and the purpose of the rapture. The marriage supper and him coming back for us. To unite the body with the spirit. Now that doesn't have to happen before the trib but it has to happen before Rev 19:14 Your thoughts on this please

[John3;16]

these verses could only be referring to Rome, this is the anti-christ not the false prophet, it will be a revived Roman Empire made up of ten nations.

Daniel|9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof

[Guest danrusdad]

Heavenly armies who also are mounted follow the conquering Christ on there own white horses. They are clothed in "fine linen", "pure and white". Who is this heavenly army? It consists of the redeemed, which, by their obedience, have washed their robes in the Lamb

[Guest hubertdorm]

1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.

Incorrect. You are confusing imminence with expectancy. An imminent Rapture means that nothing must occur before it. If we can prove just one event must have happened before the Rapture, we disprove imminence. The only event that the church fathers ever believed was imminent was the fall of Rome and coming of the antichrist. The very fact that they were looking for an antichrist proves that they did not believe in an imminent return nor a pre-trib Rapture.

2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

Pre-trib is the only premillennial position that teaches imminence. Amillenialists also believe in an imminent return. As, it happens, the Bible does not teach imminence, so both positions are wrong.

3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.

True, except that imminent return and pre-trib rapture were never fundamental beliefs of the early church. No writings have been found to support this view. The pre-trib doctrine did not come until Mogan Edwards in the 1800s. As the saying goes, "Any new doctrine is false doctrine."

4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 in context proves that the Rapture does not occur until after the tribulation. Read the entire passage, even into chapter 5. Paul specifically states that this day will come like a thief in the night. Where have you seen these words before? Jesus used them to describe his second coming after the tribulation.

5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events  (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

You'd be the only pre-tribber to believe that the "Glorious Appearing" is the Rapture. Titus 2:13 exhorts us to look for the "blessed hope and glorious appearing..." How can we look for an unseen, imminent return? Plus, this ignores the very definition of "appearing."

Appearing: 1)To become visible. 2) To come into existence. 3) To seem or look to be. 4) To seem likely. 5) To come before the public. 6) To present oneself formally before a court.

Likewise, the word "revealing" means: 1) to make known; to bring to view;show. 2) To make known by supernatural or divine means

When Jesus spoke of his return, he said that every eye will see him.

Any passage that speaks of the revealing of Christ our the appearing of our Lord is a direct reference to his 2nd Coming, the event after the tribulation. The last book of the NT, Revelation, is actually the Revelation of Jesus Christ, or the Revealing of Jesus Christ. The entire book points towards the climatic return of our Lord.

6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.

In view of his coming. If Christ came once already, then the next coming is the second coming. This is a basic principle of mathematics. 1 John 3:2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has nt yet been made known. But we know that when he appears (see above definitions), we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Again, every eye shall see Jesus when he returns. This is his revealing/appearing.

7.The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.

The terms "church" and "saints" are never to be separated. To do so causes all kinds of errors and contradictions in scripture. Jesus told his disciples, whether Jewish or not, of many things that must happen first.

8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

Yes it is. Matthew 24 says that the elect will be gathered to Christ. This means we are translated from one place to another.

9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."

True, so we need to define a couple terms. 1) What is the wrath of God? It isn't the tribulation. The wrath of God is the day immediately following the tribulation, in which Jesus Christ returns in chariots of flames and destroys the wicked upon the earth. It is one, twenty-four hour day, not a seven year period. The church is raptured off the Earth just before Christ touches ground. Thus, Christians are not in danger of being destroyed.

Next, look at the context of 1 Thess 1:9-10, and also 1 Thess 5:9-10. Who saves us from wrath? Jesus Christ. And how does he save us? By cleansing us from Sin. God's wrath is poured out on the wicked, not the righteous. This is how we are saved from wrath, through the rebirth in Christ Jesus, not an invisible Rapture.

10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

Incorrect. The day of the Lord refers again, to one day--that after the tribulation when Christ comes back. The term "day of the Lord" is used in the OT to refer to the day when the Lord returns to destroy the nations who fight against Israel. It is used in the NT to describe the day the heavens and earth are burned up in fire.

The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan--not of God. Satan is cast down to the Earth and so he goes to war against the saints.

[Guest hubertdorm]

11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)

I went over this on another thread. Even if this was a promise of Rapture, it would only be to one church, not the entire body. Also, the grammar doesn't allow for the church to be prevented from entering the tribulation, but to be watched through. Lastly, since the believes of this church are long now deceased, God kept his promise didn't he?

12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

There is no promise to believers here that they will escape tribulation. They are only instructed to pray that they will not have to endure it.

13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

How long did it take God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? 1 day or 7 years?

How long did it take the Israelites to capture the city Rahab had allowed the spies into? 1 day or 7 years?

Was the world destroyed in 1 day, 7 days, 40 days, or 7 years when God flooded it with water?

The examples you gave prove that God delivers his people from his wrath, which is poured out in one day. Again, to believe "wrath of God" and "tribulation" are the same is unbiblical.

14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

Huh? What? The words of Jesus' return in the upper room came only days after his words from Matthew 24. The disciples knew nothing of a pre-trib Rapture, and John 14 says nothing about such. This is a terrible translation.

15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

Read Psalm 22:22, Acts 7:38, and Matthew 18:17. The church is not limited to Saints after Pentecost. Pre-tribs divide saints from the Church, a theological impossibility.

16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.

I don't see how this is evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.

The church is originally Jewish. The church is not limited to saints after Pentecost, see 2 posts back.

18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

Again, see these verses: Psalm 22:22, Acts 7:38, and Matthew 18:17. The church does apply to OT saints and believers. Secondly, there are NT books that have no mention of the church, but instead are written to the elect. Are we to say that these books are not for the church??? Who is really confusing what now?

19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.

Impossible. The Holy Spirit is essential to salvation. If the holy Spirit is taken out of the world, no one could be saved. Where do the saints of Revelation come from if they can't be saved? The Restrainer is probably Michael, because the Holy Spirit is not a neuter gender being.

20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.

There still is very weak evidence to suggest an entire seven year tribulation. We do know of a seven year covenant, but neither context or any other passage refers to this entire period as being a time of tribulation. That is only speculation at best. Every other mention of tribulation in reference to end times is always a three and one-half year period.

Paul writes exactly how the man of lawlessness will be revealed. "He will oppose and will exhalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

This is the abomination that causes desolation. This is how the antichrist will be revealed. Notice that Paul said that we are not gathered to Christ until after this happens.

[Guest hubertdorm]

21. The "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.

2 Thessalonians Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed

It is also translated as the rebellion and the apostacy. Doesn't seem that the falling away refers to the Rapture. Then again, I'm no Greek expert, and I don't have to be. Let's suppose that the "falling away" refers to the Rapture shall we?

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...That day will not come unless the Rapture comes first, and the man of sin revealed."

Here's the problem. Paul used the word "our." Our is possessive of both the speaker (Paul himself) and the audience (the Christians he is writing to). This proves that Paul did not believe in a pre-trib rapture. "Our" is the key term. Paul did not believe that he himself would be brought to Christ until after the "falling away." If the falling away means the Rapture, we see Paul did not include himself from the Rapture. Now why would he believe in a pre-trib rapture and also believe that he himself would not be a part of it? He wouldn't. "Falling away" isn't the Rapture, and if it is, poor Paul is going to miss it, as well as the church he was writing to.

22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)

This is fascinating. One pre-trib argument deals with Christ's coming with his saints. How can we return with Christ if we are still on Earth. Notice that the souls under the alter (Rev 6:10) are given white garments. This is further evidence, when taken with 1 Thess 4 that the saints who return with Christ are those who have proceeded us in death.

23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.

Do you really believe this? This is most certainly an un-truth. Anyone who claims Revelation 4:1 describes the Rapture of the church cannot claim literal interpretation. The pre-trib doctrine spiritualizes just as many passages as other views. The entire doctrine is anti-hermeneutics. Just look at how you isolate 1 Thess 4 from chapter 5, and how Matthew 24 and 1 Thess have so many similarities which are ignored. These are just two of many hermeneutic violations.

24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming

The pre-trib doctrine also distinguishes the church from the elect, and the rapture from the 2nd coming. Shows that they really have no idea what they are saying.

25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.

It most certainly is. Revelation 11:15-18 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

"We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come,

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

And again, Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

The Parable in Luke 19 teaches that the King rewards his servants when he returns.

And lastly, good evidence from 2 Timothy 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Here, Paul states clearly that he will receive his crown on that Day. When is that Day? Paul tells us at the very beginning of the chapter:

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom

26. The "four and twenty elders" in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.

The identity of these men are still under debate. I've put my comments on your other topic (16 proofs of pre-trib). Basically, if the elders are redeemed men, so are the four beasts, because they are all singing this song. On the other hand, the grammar shows that they are singing in third person, "who has redeemed them."

27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.

Revelation 19:7-10 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, "Write: "Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!"' And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

This is the second coming, and this is the wedding, when the Church is brought to Christ. Notice that the marriage "has come," not "came already." Revelation 19 is just now the wedding, how can there have been a wedding feast previous? The wedding supper is about to begin!!

28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).

Incorrect. We are given new bodies at his coming. Immortal, imperishable. We cannot give birth. The people who enter into the millennium are 1)Gentiles who survive the Lord's coming, and 2) the Jewish remnant. NO BELIEVER WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM IN A MORTAL BODY.

29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.

If you compare the parable of the Sheeps and Goats to the other two parables, the Net, and the Wheat and tares, you will understand what Jesus was talking about.

30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.

See above parables. The separating occurs at Jesus' second coming.