The Error of Replacement Theology

[nebula]

...Praise God that He blesses our Church and many other Churches who live as the modern day people of God, appropriating His eternal promises. Let God do want He wants with Old Israel who mainly continue to reject His Messiah; its not for us to squabble over what the Almighty may or may not wish to do, He's a lot wiser than us.

 

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Romans 11

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches ; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear ; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

[nebula]

I often think God is much less bothered about our rather pathetic theological squabbles and much more interested in the quality of our love.

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But what if our theology affects our quality of love?

 

 

I have a question, do you regard the unsaved Jew as being worse than the unsaved Gentile?

 

Another question: do you regard Gentiles as superior than Jews?

[Spinning Machine]

Sorry I got lost there for a bit, my little note book went on the blink, and now I can not find the thread where I asked some very important questions to determin if this web-site puts zionism before the truth. I managed to read the answers I got in back in the last hour, but if I keap going in and out of spam, where they are, I loose my link, so apologies if I do not address each of you.

So to cut to the chase,

Now then, who are the "circumcised Jews" of end time prophecy? Are they the literal, physical, circumcised Jews who are the literal, physical Jews of the literal, physical racial line of Abraham? NO:

"For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly [physically circumcised and of the physical line of Abraham] neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he IS a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and NOT of the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Rom. 2:28-29).

Notice that this Scripture is found in "Romans." Rome is a Gentile nation, not a nation of Israel. Paul is telling Gentile Romans that THEY can be the TRUE JEW INWARDLY OF THE HEART AND SPRIT. Wow! Romans can be "JEWS?" Who would have ever thought? Maybe that was just a slip of Paul’s tongue. Surely he isn’t telling us that under the New Covenant GENTILES ARE JEWS is he? Here’s a second witness:

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision [mutilation—those Jews who wanted to cut off the flesh of grown men among the Gentiles]. FOR WE [former pagan, present GENTILE Philippians of Philippi—North Central Greece] ARE THE CIRCUMCISION which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus, an have NO confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:2-3).

According to God, are those literal, physical Jews of the racial line of Abraham who are circumcised in the flesh, "Jews." NO, former pagan Gentiles are the TRUE JEWS according to Scripture.

But weren’t all the "promises" to Abraham for "HIS SEED? Yes, of course, but the question now is, "Who IS Abraham’s seed?"

"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect [God is not contradicting here]. For they are NOT all Israel, which are Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the FLESH, these are NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the PROMISE ARE counted for the seed" (Rom. 9:6-8).

Yes, God intended from the beginning that the TRUE JEW, the SPIRITUAL JEW, the TRUE SEED of Abraham, the TRUE HEIR to the promises was to be the GENTILES!

And that makes Rothschild the shepherd of todays literal Isreal, and Zionism a Masonic fraud. go figar

[GoldenEagle]

Sorry I got lost there for a bit, my little note book went on the blink, and now I can not find the thread where I asked some very important questions....

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I think the thread you're looking for is

 

If you click on your name at the top left you can click on "my content" and it will show you the threads you've posted in for reference.

[Guest shiloh357]

Now then, who are the "circumcised Jews" of end time prophecy? Are they the literal, physical, circumcised Jews who are the literal, physical Jews of the literal, physical racial line of Abraham? NO:

"For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly [physically circumcised and of the physical line of Abraham] neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he IS a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and NOT of the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Rom. 2:28-29).

Notice that this Scripture is found in "Romans." Rome is a Gentile nation, not a nation of Israel. Paul is telling Gentile Romans that THEY can be the TRUE JEW INWARDLY OF THE HEART AND SPRIT. Wow! Romans can be "JEWS?" Who would have ever thought? Maybe that was just a slip of Paul’s tongue. Surely he isn’t telling us that under the New Covenant GENTILES ARE JEWS is he?

 

 

 

 

Spinning Machine. No, he is not.  You are misreading the text.   The New Testament never spiritualizes the words "Jew" or "Israel.  They are always used to describe the physcial descendents of Jacob.

 

It is important to note that Paul is speaking to what amounts to an imaginary unbelieving Jewish audience, basically an interlociter with whom Paul debates, anticipating their argument and answering it himself in the letter to the Romans in order to make a didactic point to his Roman audience.

 

 while still making a potent point to his readership of non-Jewish believers.  Paul has already demonstrated in the previous verses, that being without the Torah does not short change the Gentiles. They are not at a disadvantage.  Paul sets his sights on Jewish pride that places its faith in external practices, and boasts in the Torah/Law at the Lord’s expense.

In boasting about and abusing their Jewishness, Paul says that they have become the very antithesis of what Torah observanc, and Jewishness really is.  In their foolish pride, they both dishonor God and fail to be a light to the Gentiles.

 

   Paul goes even further and tells them that those who are uncircumcised but have fulfilled the righteousness of the law  (in other words, those who are born again) will sit in judgment on them!!  The very ones who should have been glorifying God and being a light to the world will, through their hypocrisy and pride find themselves judged by the very ones they considered to be sinners and unrighteous.

 

  Paul then demonstrates that the Jewish person who goes about making an obnoxious, ostentatious display of his pedigree is, in fact, not Jewish. He commands others to keep the Torah while failing in his own observance, He takes pride in the advantages he has as if they were his own doing, and not God’s and in doing so, he has no place in the Kingdom of God.  Paul tells his Jewish audience in these verses that their outward circumcision is not the essence of their Jewishness.  It is the circumcision of the heart; the cutting away of the fleshly desires and attitudes that prevent them from living as those whose life is a praise  unto God.

 

 

 

 

 

Here’s a second witness:

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision [mutilation—those Jews who wanted to cut off the flesh of grown men among the Gentiles]. FOR WE [former pagan, present GENTILE Philippians of Philippi—North Central Greece] ARE THE CIRCUMCISION which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus, an have NO confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:2-3).

According to God, are those literal, physical Jews of the racial line of Abraham who are circumcised in the flesh, "Jews." NO, former pagan Gentiles are the TRUE JEWS according to Scripture.

 

 

 

Wrong again.  Paul is referring to a Judaizing sect.  They were not mainstream Jews or even mainstream Jewish believers.  They were an extremist sect that  the NT clearly rejects as a genuine group of believers.   They were going from church to church attempting to spread their false doctrines, namely that one had to convert to Jewish religion in addition to trusting in Jesus.  There is nothing in that verse to suggest that the Jews were no longer God's chosen people.  You are assigning values to the text that are not there.   Paul uses the word "consicion" as a pejorative against this sect/cult.  He was not referring to the Jews in masse.

 

 

 

But weren’t all the "promises" to Abraham for "HIS SEED? Yes, of course, but the question now is, "Who IS Abraham’s seed?"

"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect [God is not contradicting here]. For they are NOT all Israel, which are Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the FLESH, these are NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the PROMISE ARE counted for the seed" (Rom. 9:6-8).

Yes, God intended from the beginning that the TRUE JEW, the SPIRITUAL JEW, the TRUE SEED of Abraham, the TRUE HEIR to the promises was to be the GENTILES!

 

 

 

Wrong yet again.  Paul in Romans is differentiating between the Jews who put their faith in the Messiah as the true Israel.  Israel after the flesh is not the Israel of God.  Jewish believers who trust in Jesus as their Messiah are the true Israel.  Israel is not being used to refer to Gentiles at all.  You are ignoring the context and making up doctrine out of whole cloth on this one.  Israel is not counted through Abraham, but through Jacob.  Even the Midianites were Abraham's "seed."   To be Abraham's seed does not make one a Jew.   The Bible never refers to Christians as Jews, never calls the Church "Jacob" or "Israel."   It never uses the imagery of the twelve tribes to picture the church.  All of those things are only ever references to the physical descendents of Jacob. 

 

 

 

 

And that makes Rothschild the shepherd of todays literal Isreal, and Zionism a Masonic fraud. go figar

 

 

 

Sounds like you have been hitting the conspiracy theory kool-aid a little hard, LOL.

 

[GoldenEagle]

Gandalf possible to get your thoughts on post # 151?

 

I would also be interested in Spinning Machines thoughts on the same post.

 

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

Memo From Israel to Palestine

by Gerard Van der Leun

 

 

Re: Final Notice Before the Termination of Our Relationship (To be filed in your "Permanent Conduct Record")

Date: To Be Determined
To: The Palestinian People
From: The People of Israel

Re: Final Notice Before the Termination of Our Relationship
(To be filed in your "Permanent Conduct Record")

As you know from our repeated meetings over many years, we have repeatedly done our best to accommodate your incessant demands regarding employment, compensation, housing allowances, health benefits, and other items of mutual interest as we have endeavored to work together on "Project Peace in the Middle East."

We have, with your agreement and assurances of a better performance, given you time, money, professional help, medication and a more than reasonable offer of land for you to live in while you work out "your issues." In the course of these meetings we feel we have been more than forthcoming in our attendance to your "special needs."

From time to time we have accepted your written word that, given adequate resources, you would be working to resolve "your issues." We note, for the record, that at no time has your word proven to be worth the paper that we both so ceremoniously signed. Indeed, it has been our bitter experience that the working out of "your issues" most often involves explosive episodes on the streets of our country.

It has come to our attention, through a continuing rain of the body parts of our citizens onto our streets, that "your issues" do not seem to be resolvable through considered and mutually agreeable negotiations. The outcome of these 'negotiations' in the recent past seems to us to be one of we give and you take and then you kill us. We have decided that this is not a program that we wish to continue.

Indeed, it would seem to be the case that your "central issue," although internally generated within your institutions and religion, seems to be the eradication of the state of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish people here and abroad. We mention 'abroad' since it would seem to us that your goal is to first create a base that includes the entire state of Israel, kill the Jews within those borders, and then use that land as a base to kill Jews throughout the world. Perhaps we are wrong in this, but we find that a people is best known by the company they keep.

We have had a similar experience with this "central issue" as a "final solution" towards the middle of the last century. We discovered, after millions of us had been slaughtered, that mollification, negotiation and submission was not a successful policy. Indeed, we created the state of Israel around the central concept of 'Never again.'

Please note that after no little reflection and soul searching, we have decided to return Israel to this concept as the foundation of our internal and international policy from this moment forward.

Because we are a reasonable people we have decided to issue this memorandum in order to give you one chance to reform yourselves and become fit to be included in the human race. Should you choose not to pursue this path, we will at least have a record that you were notified in a fair and timely manner before termination.

"Never Again" was our first principle and is now our final position. This memo serves to note the end of all negotiations with the Palestinian People.

Your problems and your issues as of this date are yours and yours alone. You must solve whatever bipolar instability and manic-depressive disappointment and psychotic tendencies towards homicidal violence plague your society among yourselves. You will not, from this date forward, use the People of Israel as targets for your own internal demons.

Your "issues" will no longer be allowed to become our "episodes."

Should you choose to act out, even once, we, the People of Israel, hereby notify you that we are prepared to and shall, without any further notice, over-react towards all Palestinian people and interests within our sphere of influence.

Bear in mind that we have not in recent memory over-reacted against your unremitting efforts to exterminate us. We have been patient and measured in our responses, cognizant of a watching world and not wanting to seem, even for a moment, to be as savage and violent as those who have been waging a coward's war against us for decades. We have, at all points, been as honorable in war as possible ? even when the wars in which we were engaged were not fought by honorable adversaries.

As you know, our military power, both conventional and nuclear, is immense. We won't detail here the helicopters, missiles, tanks, aircraft and troops that we can mobilize and move to the east, as far as the desert of Iraq, if we wish.

Mere mention of these items has not gotten your attention.

The restrained use of these items has not gotten your attention.

Because we are weary of having our streets used as your martyr's mausoleums, because we are extremely angered when we must place the shredded bodies of children into body bags, because we would feel a lot better getting up in the morning if we knew we'd be coming home at night, we have decided we must, regretfully, engage in methods that will, finally, either get your attention or leave you without the capacity for attention in the first place.

This, then, is your single choice:

If you know of those among you who seek to kill even one of us by any means, you would be well advised to render them incapable of killing anyone immediately. Should you wish to ever have a bit of land to call your own and you are aware of an organization of any kind that seeks to take our land outright, you would be well advised to render them powerless forthwith.

Should you fail to do so and, as we stated above, even one more of our citizens should be killed by the cowardly methods you have perfected over the years, we will conclude that your entire society values martyrdom more than life and peace, and we will endeavor, to the limit of our ability, to supply you with same.

We will begin our program of over-reaction without delay and without reference to our allies or world opinion. We will deal with that in the days that follow the completion of our strategic exercises in what you quaintly term "the occupied territories." Please notify those whom you consider your allies that, should they chance to intervene, we have sufficient resources to deal with them expeditiously.

Should individual Palestinians feel that these terms are unrealistic, we would advise them to seek an exit visa and to remove themselves as far from 'the occupied territories' as is feasible, and as quickly as possible. When we over-react to the east we will not be checking ID cards.

Please reflect upon these conditions as seriously as we have in drafting them.

Remember, in the final analysis, we are a people with no little experience in stunning victories.

Sincerely,

The People of Israel

CC: USA, EU, UN and others whom it may concern

 

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/issues_episodes/memo_from_israe.php

[nebula]

Now then, who are the "circumcised Jews" of end time prophecy? Are they the literal, physical, circumcised Jews who are the literal, physical Jews of the literal, physical racial line of Abraham? NO:

"For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly [physically circumcised and of the physical line of Abraham] neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he IS a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and NOT of the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Rom. 2:28-29).

Notice that this Scripture is found in "Romans." Rome is a Gentile nation, not a nation of Israel. Paul is telling Gentile Romans that THEY can be the TRUE JEW INWARDLY OF THE HEART AND SPRIT. Wow! Romans can be "JEWS?" Who would have ever thought? Maybe that was just a slip of Paul’s tongue. Surely he isn’t telling us that under the New Covenant GENTILES ARE JEWS is he? Here’s a second witness:

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Do you know that Jews lived in Rome? Yes, there was a period of time that the Jews were expelled from Rome, but Bible scholars seem to agree that the Jews were allowed back into Rome, and in fact were back in Rome, by the time Paul wrote this letter, and that he was writing to both Jewish believers and Gentile believers in this letter to the Church in Rome.

 

 

 

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision [mutilation—those Jews who wanted to cut off the flesh of grown men among the Gentiles]. FOR WE [former pagan, present GENTILE Philippians of Philippi—North Central Greece] ARE THE CIRCUMCISION which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus, an have NO confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:2-3).

 

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You do know that Paul was a circumcized Jew, don't you? (He was a a Pharisee discipled under Gamaliel, after all.)

 

 

Yes, God intended from the beginning that the TRUE JEW, the SPIRITUAL JEW, the TRUE SEED of Abraham, the TRUE HEIR to the promises was to be the GENTILES!

 

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So, what do you call the physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who has come to faith in Yeshua (Jesus) as his/her Messiah?

 

 

 

And that makes Rothschild the shepherd of todays literal Isreal, and Zionism a Masonic fraud.

 

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How do you logically jump from a few things Paul wrote in the 1st century to Rothschild and Masonry?

 

Are you trying to argue a case to change opinions, or are you simply trying to provoke emotions?

 

Edited June 5, 2013 by nebula

[marvalusxoxo]

I have a question for you since you have a strong position about the nation of Israel. Can a Jews go to heaven? what is the requirement to go to heaven? in God's word is very clear: Jesus is the only way to heaven ... not a lineage or an inheritance or anything like that. Jesus in John 14 says: I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me. it does not say if you are from a Jewish lineage you will go to heaven. Therefore, there are many Jewish who as we speak do not believe in Jesus as their savior. We must recall that God sent many prophets to the nation of Israel and they rejected the word of God and our God even sent His only son to them and they not only rejected Him but also crucified Him. I know many Jewish who have come to know Jesus as their savior and also those who still reject Him! Jesus is Lord and the son of God!

[nebula]

I have a question for you since you have a strong position about the nation of Israel. Can a Jewish go to heaven? ...

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I am continually surprised that this argument keeps popping up every time this topic is brought up.  Did the Lord ever consider a genetic descendant of Jacob to be righteous by birth? If that were the case, than Ahab would have gone  "to a better place" after he died. But we know that isn't true, right?

 

No, being chosen and having a calling isn't about getting any free pass - if anything it means you have to endure more and hotter fires of refining than the average joe.