Are You a fundamentalist.........Atheist?

[ellie]

Father, how I pray right now that those who do not know You would come to know You, and to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. I know that if they ever felt Your Love as I do and many others that I know do, they would forever be changed by that Wondrous and unconditional Love. How I thank You for Loving me Lord when I was so unlovable, thank You for my salvation from sin. I would give up anything in this world for Your Love Lord, for Your beautiful wonderful Love. When a sinner feels that forgiveness there is nothing in life to ever compare with it. What peace, what wonderful peace. I would give up country, home, family and life rather than ever turn back, there is nothing in this world worth giving up Your Love for. The Love that hung on a cruel cross for me. Thank You Jesus, thank You, I will never be able to thank You enough dearest Lord Jesus for that sacrifice for me and for everyone. Praise Your Name Jesus. I love You Lord Jesus, You are my Lord and my Redeemer. The Lover of soul, my dearest companion, I could not live in this world without You, now that I know You so intimately I could not live without Your presence in my life. I have not had a day of lonliness since I met You Jesus. Thank You Lord, Shine Your beautiful light into the lonely hearts here, that they will know You as I do Lord and they will wonder how they ever lived without You.

REAL LOVE

Musicians try to sing of love and poets try to write it,

Preachers sometimes preach of love, while lovers just ignite it,

The world pursues other avenues, mostly at its loss,

But the only definition I have of Love is Jesus on my cross,

Jesus on my cross, you see, is a love that never ends,

Jesus, God's most perfect gift dying for my sins,

That is perfect Love to me though I could not ever earn it,

All my life I will draw near to Him in hopes that I might learn it,

All my words could not explain though I write many pages,

Love, Real love hung on my cross, oh wonder of the ages.

Mary (ellie) 2004

[barnabas]

Amen!

[artsylady]

Hi Az:

For myself I base my moral guidelines on principles of shared interest among my fellow humans.

If you're in North America, you do realize most of those moral guidelines are Christian ones.

I know what I consider to be harmful to me and by reasoning expect that others may share some of these notions as well.

What kind of reasoning? Some here in our culture think it's perfectly okay to steal or murder.

Christianity is not the first nor will it be the last to come to the realization that this is an extremely good basis upon which to build a society.

Who said 'the golden rule' before Christ, out of curiosity?

You see, an atheist has no real philosophical basis for saying that you are morally wrong if you steal his car. The most he can say (and still be consistent with his belief) is that you have broken a law which has been set up by a majority of people for the purpose of living more conveniently or pleasurably.

I can say quite a bit more. Someone stealing a car severly disrupts social harmony. It severes trust and destroys community. It takes a person's property away that they have struggled to earn. It threatens their very life if they are dependent on that car. It undermines the very fabric of our society.

But there are those who believe that since they are poor and a huge trillion dollar corporation won't miss a 20 thousand dollar car, they are justified in stealing it. They honestly feel that there is nothing wrong with it.

But just let someone try lying to an atheist, or stealing something from him, or messing around with his mate, and you will see how quickly he becomes a moralist!

Of course they will be upset about it. We all agree to strive together in cooperation as it benefits all equally. When one person tries to upend the system and cheat it, it harms us as well as everyone else. We are a learning species. If we go around cheating and stealing we wind up teaching others to cheat and steal. And eventually it comes back and destroys us. Socrates even spoke of this when he was being tried unjustly for teaching his students to be evil. This is an ancient principle of society and not something that only came about with the arrival of the Abrahamic God.

But as far as written laws, we know God said it before Socrates did.

Actually the first thing a typical atheist will point out about Hitler is that he dedicated his book Mein Kampf to God.

Is that written right in his book?

What 'god' would he be dedicating it to, when he was clearly trying to annihialate God's chosen people?

Here is a very simple means of discerning why killing six million Jews was wrong. I enjoy life. By reasoning I can conjecture that others enjoy life. If their life can so easily be tossed away because another group of people decide they do not count as human then my life can just as easily be discarded by a sufficient number of people.

Well that's your opinion. If others don't value human life, are they wrong?

Now lets take a look at your words about fundimentalist atheists.

You spend hours arguing that a-theism actually means "without a belief in God " and not just " belief that there is no god" as if this is a meaningful distinction in real life.

Atheists like logic. Its sort of our thing.

I went through this with SA before. When you realize that when it comes to science and the universe, we know so very little. The unknowns FAR outweight knowns. Surely you can admit this. Therefore, saying that there is NO god is completely illogical.

One of the things about logic is you can't prove a negative. Thus claiming there are no smurfs in the universe is not a logical statement. Simply because you would have to know all of the universe in order to know the statement were true. On the other hand the statement I see no evidence for smurfs in the universe and the burden of proof is on those people claiming that smurfs are real is valid (but complex) statement. There is a difference. Sorry if you don't understand it.

So you can't prove that there IS NO God..

You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

I have known people that thought they could fly because a guru told them how. I have known people that believed they were communing with the universe and had become one with it. I have known people that claimed to have a personal relationship with Allah. And I have known people that claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I have also studied the nature of the brain. Let us just say that I do not discard the value they attach to these relationships but I do not believe that they are all interpretting them correctly.

I agree, they are not all interpreting them correctly.

An atheist does not assume that a person that believes is lying. They believe they are mistaken. Belief is emotional in nature though and significant emotional events can lead to a shift in beliefs. So you will often times see people have a so called crisis of faith during such times. It happens both ways. Theists can shift to atheists and atheists can shift to theists. Rest assured though. An atheist does not think you are lying or are malicious.

Yeah, we're all pretty much in the same boat. We think you're dilusioned and you think we are. lol.

Here you seem to misunderstand the application of logic. If you cannot measure or find any evidence of a thing it does not mean it doesn't exist. It just means you cannot find evidence that it does. Therefor there is no reason at the time to assume it does exist. If someone is trying to convince you that it exists then the burden of proof is on their shoulders. As to the narrow minded comment I will let that lie where it is.

You just chose to dismiss as evidence, what we Christians all clearly see as evidence. Prophesy, archaology, complexity, balance, answers to prayer, etc, etc, etc.

If you beleive in evolution, your evidence is no greater than our evidence for God and a Creator.

You say that there is no God and that those who believe in God do so in blind faith, yet your claim that there is no God also rests on blind faith.

It is simply a fact that I do not believe there is a God.

It's a fact that you don't beleive in God - accepted. That of course, does not mean God does not exist.

You believe that planes, computers, calculators, compasses, etc, were "all obviously designed," yet the human body, being intricately more complex was "obviously a product of biological evolution." It seems the more complex the apparatus, the more obvious the "fact" that it was not designed.

This isn't a statement about atheists. This is a statement about those that accept the theory of evolution. And many other schools of thought than just atheism accept this teaching. Even some Christian churches accept this theory. The Pope has even accepted it.

I don't care what the Pope accepts. There are a lot of things I would disagree with the Pope.

When the Pope says that God may have used evolution, he is an enlightened religious leader whom Christians should listen to. When the Pope preaches on the sanctity of human life from conception, and thus denounces abortion, he's just a senile religious bigot who should keep his opinions to himself.

We differ with the Pope on a number of issues. We are encouraged when he embraces the learning of modern science and discouraged when he tries to press Papal Infallibility on the rest of the world.

I have my doubts that the Pope is well educated in modern science.

You are a person who absolutely believes that life came from nonlife, yet absolutely deny the possibility of anyone rising from the dead.

But we are always open to exposure to new evidence. Its kind of how we learn things.

My guess is that you dismissed the grave of James the brother of Jesus as quickly as you dismissed the other more than 500 peices of archaeology that align with the Bible. My guess is that if they found Noah's ark, you'd dismiss it. It's simple I think - you don't WANT to believe in God. If you did, you would see evidence every day of your life.

It occurs to me as I am writing this that you have a lot of anger. You seem to be directing a lot of this towards atheists. You are not alone in this directing of anger and hate towards atheists. I myself have been the victim of vandalism conducted by Christians who felt the need to express their rage and anger.

Oh my! What happened? Would you mind sharing?

I personally don't understand why athiests continually need to come to Christian boards except that there is something in their spirit troubling them that they need to continually fight against.

Do you guys fight against the Muslims, Buddhists or Wiccans, or just Christians?

[artsylady]

AZ:

On the question of morals, there are entire countries out there that beleive it is not wrong at all to kill baby girls. If you grew up in that country, you would also think that this is okay.

1) Do you think it is wrong for them to do this?

2) Are you glad you grew up among Judeo Christian values?

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear artslady,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

If you're in North America, you do realize most of those moral guidelines are Christian ones.

I would have to disagree. A more accurate statement would be Judeo-christian laws. People can have varied morals, but the laws are what govern us all in the USA.

What kind of reasoning? Some here in our culture think it's perfectly okay to steal or murder.

They can think what they like. Behaviour is key. If they behave as they think, the law will punish.

Who said 'the golden rule' before Christ, out of curiosity?

Confucius stated, and wrote down what is called the silver rule about 500 years before christ. "Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you." (Analects 15:23). You can google it.

Therefore, saying that there is NO god is completely illogical.

Agreed. And saying there is a god is also completely illogical. The truth is that one does not know. Believers have faith, unbelievers do not.

So you can't prove that there IS NO God..

I don't think anyone was trying to prove a negative. Can anyone prove that the invisible pink unicorn up in the sky doesn't exist? And I don't think anyone is successful trying to prove god's existence either.

Yeah, we're all pretty much in the same boat. We think you're dilusioned and you think we are. lol.

Yes, I would have to agree in this at least we are similar.

It's a fact that you don't beleive in God - accepted. That of course, does not mean God does not exist.

It is also a fact that you believe in god - accepted. That of course, does not mean god exists.

I personally don't understand why athiests continually need to come to Christian boards except that there is something in their spirit troubling them that they need to continually fight against.

Do you guys fight against the Muslims, Buddhists or Wiccans, or just Christians?

There is nothing troubling my spirit that I need to continually fight against. I do not fight. I do visit muslim, buddhist, wiccan and christian boards. I am a student of human behaviour.

Peace,

UndecidedFrog

[ellie]

I personally don't understand why athiests continually need to come to Christian boards except that there is something in their spirit troubling them that they need to continually fight against.

Do you guys fight against the Muslims, Buddhists or Wiccans, or just Christians?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[UndecidedFrog]

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Let us just love them no matter why they are here.

As we love you, no matter what you may believe.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[ellie]

Thanks Frog.

F-fullly

R-rely

O-on

G-God

God bless You. In His Great Love, ellie

[artsylady]

Undecided Frog:

If you're in North America, you do realize most of those moral guidelines are Christian ones.

I would have to disagree. A more accurate statement would be Judeo-christian laws. People can have varied morals, but the laws are what govern us all in the USA.

Christian and Judeo Christian are basically the same thing. I used the phrase Judeo Christian later in the same post but didn't realize anyone would be so picky with words. I'm not sure where you disagree? Is it simply the word "Judeo" added to Christian? Do you realize overwhelmingly, the laws governing the US are based on Judeo Christian laws?

QUOTE

Who said 'the golden rule' before Christ, out of curiosity?

Confucius stated, and wrote down what is called the silver rule about 500 years before christ. "Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you." (Analects 15:23). You can google it.

I think Christ said it differently. He said "Do unto others". Not "Do not do". Christ's message was more proactive, but they are similar.

QUOTE

Therefore, saying that there is NO god is completely illogical.

Agreed. And saying there is a god is also completely illogical. The truth is that one does not know. Believers have faith, unbelievers do not.

If some of us have heard the voice of God personally then how is it illogical?

QUOTE

So you can't prove that there IS NO God..

I don't think anyone was trying to prove a negative. Can anyone prove that the invisible pink unicorn up in the sky doesn't exist? And I don't think anyone is successful trying to prove god's existence either.

Why do you compare God to a fairytale, yet spend your life fighting this 'fairytale".

Everywhere on earth, people are worshipping something. We were created spiritual beings.

QUOTE

It's a fact that you don't beleive in God - accepted. That of course, does not mean God does not exist.

It is also a fact that you believe in god - accepted. That of course, does not mean god exists.

But as stated, in science, we know far less that what we do know. The unknowns are greater than the knowns. So to say there definitely is no God, is simply arrogant.

QUOTE

I personally don't understand why athiests continually need to come to Christian boards except that there is something in their spirit troubling them that they need to continually fight against.

Do you guys fight against the Muslims, Buddhists or Wiccans, or just Christians?

There is nothing troubling my spirit that I need to continually fight against. I do not fight. I do visit muslim, buddhist, wiccan and christian boards. I am a student of human behaviour.

Well, I don't blame you for being undecided and sure don't blame you for researching other religions as well. You should do this, and keep your heart open to the truth while you are doing so.

Could you give me the site of the muslim and Buddhist board you frequent? I have many times wanted to go to one to debate. Maybe now I will.

[ellie]

Undecided Frog:

If you're in North America, you do realize most of those moral guidelines are Christian ones.

I would have to disagree. A more accurate statement would be Judeo-christian laws. People can have varied morals, but the laws are what govern us all in the USA.

Christian and Judeo Christian are basically the same thing. I used the phrase Judeo Christian later in the same post but didn't realize anyone would be so picky with words. I'm not sure where you disagree? Is it simply the word "Judeo" added to Christian? Do you realize overwhelmingly, the laws governing the US are based on Judeo Christian laws?

QUOTE

Who said 'the golden rule' before Christ, out of curiosity?

Confucius stated, and wrote down what is called the silver rule about 500 years before christ. "Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you." (Analects 15:23). You can google it.

I think Christ said it differently. He said "Do unto others". Not "Do not do". Christ's message was more proactive, but they are similar.

QUOTE

Therefore, saying that there is NO god is completely illogical.

Agreed. And saying there is a god is also completely illogical. The truth is that one does not know. Believers have faith, unbelievers do not.

If some of us have heard the voice of God personally then how is it illogical?

QUOTE

So you can't prove that there IS NO God..

I don't think anyone was trying to prove a negative. Can anyone prove that the invisible pink unicorn up in the sky doesn't exist? And I don't think anyone is successful trying to prove god's existence either.

Why do you compare God to a fairytale, yet spend your life fighting this 'fairytale".

Everywhere on earth, people are worshipping something. We were created spiritual beings.

QUOTE

It's a fact that you don't beleive in God - accepted. That of course, does not mean God does not exist.

It is also a fact that you believe in god - accepted. That of course, does not mean god exists.

But as stated, in science, we know far less that what we do know. The unknowns are greater than the knowns. So to say there definitely is no God, is simply arrogant.

QUOTE

I personally don't understand why athiests continually need to come to Christian boards except that there is something in their spirit troubling them that they need to continually fight against.

Do you guys fight against the Muslims, Buddhists or Wiccans, or just Christians?

There is nothing troubling my spirit that I need to continually fight against. I do not fight. I do visit muslim, buddhist, wiccan and christian boards. I am a student of human behaviour.

Well, I don't blame you for being undecided and sure don't blame you for researching other religions as well. You should do this, and keep your heart open to the truth while you are doing so.

Could you give me the site of the muslim and Buddhist board you frequent? I have many times wanted to go to one to debate. Maybe now I will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you artsylady, I often wonder if the atheists argue with Buddhists and Muslims too. In the past the ones I have known have only had a problem with the 'Christian God'. Not saying that all atheists are the same just my experience with some of them. But you made some very valid points. God bless. In His Great Love, ellie

Edited November 14, 2004 by ellie