Slippery Slope Posted November 19, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1965 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I hate to intrude on UndecidedFrogs conversation, especially when he does such a fine job of articulating his belief, but I'd like to interject a couple thoughts. YoungPastorMarc: I feel that the bible is a collection of stories that were selected out of hundreds (perhaps thousands?) and put into a single volume to allow the Emperor Constantine to force his new religion on the wealthy and influential subjects under his rule. These were supposedly the most widely used stories in circulation and the best collection of sales pitches for the religion. I don't mean the term "sales pitches" in a negative way but that over time (a little over 300 years) only the stories that couldn't easily be refuted or that worked well to convert someone were used. It has been shown by MANY scholars that MANY of the stories are VERY similar to stories that were being told by other religions and peoples. It is striking the number of parables and events Christianity claims as "Biblical" that would seem to have been gathered and integrated into Christianity. Artsylady: I'm gonna have to agree with the Frog in that I would much rather someone not do me harm first and help me 2nd. Helping me does me no good if I've been harmed and I would take the long walk to the service station over being shot any day. You misunderstand your own question, the choice between being helpful or not is secondary to doing good or evil. Morality is a function of society. Without religion or without Christianity a society determines it's morality. China (which has a history exceeding the bibles dating of humans) functioned very well for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ. They had laws against the common man murdering one another or stealing from one another, obeying their elders... Just because in the USA we think a particular practice is wrong doesn't make it so for people in another country. Still waiting -SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadB Posted November 19, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 42 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 19, 2004 UndecidedFrog and any other who feels this way... You are absolutely nuts if you think its ok for someone to eat another person if it goes with their culture. I bet you would love to be friends with Hitler or maybe even some other famous murderers. But hey, that went with their microculture(murdering) so I guess its ok. DON'T YOU SEE? Saying something is OK just because it goes with their culture means NOTHING IS WRONG!!!! What defines a culture? Where are the limits. I am a firm believer. I love God with all my heart but I truly believe that you and the rest of the atheists on this site are here to argue for whatever reason(fear that you are wrong maybe or possibly searching for truth) and attempt to sway believers from the truth because of your intelligent pride. Argue if you will but that is the truth, no matter what you say. I hope it because you are searching for truth. I will visit this site no more. I will continue to pray for you but my staying here only angers me when I hear remarks like those that you make. I don't want my being upset to set a bad example. I hope and pray Christ will someday become a part of your life. I am so frustrated now I can hardly write. God bless all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellie Posted November 19, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 197 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 19, 2004 Hi Chad, I hope that you do not let the atheists chase you away, don't give them that much power in your life. Keep your eyes on Jesus, brother and keep on shining your light. God will sort it all out in the end. The truth will be known in the end and the only thing that will matter then is did each of us choose well. There will always be people in this life we do not agree with, we can still treat them with the love of Jesus no matter what they do or do not believe. Matt. 5:44 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellie Posted November 19, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 197 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 19, 2004 (edited) I hate to intrude on UndecidedFrogs conversation, especially when he does such a fine job of articulating his belief, but I'd like to interject a couple thoughts. YoungPastorMarc: I feel that the bible is a collection of stories that were selected out of hundreds (perhaps thousands?) and put into a single volume to allow the Emperor Constantine to force his new religion on the wealthy and influential subjects under his rule. These were supposedly the most widely used stories in circulation and the best collection of sales pitches for the religion. I don't mean the term "sales pitches" in a negative way but that over time (a little over 300 years) only the stories that couldn't easily be refuted or that worked well to convert someone were used. It has been shown by MANY scholars that MANY of the stories are VERY similar to stories that were being told by other religions and peoples. It is striking the number of parables and events Christianity claims as "Biblical" that would seem to have been gathered and integrated into Christianity. Artsylady: I'm gonna have to agree with the Frog in that I would much rather someone not do me harm first and help me 2nd. Helping me does me no good if I've been harmed and I would take the long walk to the service station over being shot any day. You misunderstand your own question, the choice between being helpful or not is secondary to doing good or evil. Morality is a function of society. Without religion or without Christianity a society determines it's morality. China (which has a history exceeding the bibles dating of humans) functioned very well for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ. They had laws against the common man murdering one another or stealing from one another, obeying their elders... Just because in the USA we think a particular practice is wrong doesn't make it so for people in another country. Still waiting -SS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think faith is the factor here, you either want to believe in the Bible as the inerrant word of God or you don't. The same thing with Jesus Christ, you either want to believe in Him or you don't, and if you don't then no amount of convincing on my part or any other Christian's part will sway you. I happen to believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, I happen to believe in the inerrant Word of God set forth in scripture. But I also respect your right not to believe. We all have free will, so I guess I have to wonder what are you still waiting for S.S.? Will any amount of evidence be enough for someone who doesn't want to believe in God? Because that is truly what faith is about, I believe the Bible to be true and I believe that Jesus said "Blessed are those who do not see, yet still believe". Faith is acceptance, I didn't need to be convinced, when the good news of the gospel was presented to me I had the faith of a little child and I just believed it to be so. I guess if you are waiting for evidence S.S. there is plenty to be found in the study of nature, and you could always ask Jesus to reveal himself to you. Free will means not having to bend someone's arm behind their back to get them to believe. You can choose not to. It really is that simple. As a follower of Jesus Christ I want to believe and so no amount of evidence that anyone would present to me that would seem to dispute what I believe in to be the truth would sway my belief. In short, I do not bother with arguing, my job as a Christian is to point others to the Person of Jesus Christ in order for them to be forgiven and come to salvation. I don't need to argue with them in order to get them to believe or to convict them, that is the Holy Spirit's office. In His Wonderful Love, ellie Edited November 19, 2004 by ellie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest YouthPastorMarc Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I hate to intrude on UndecidedFrogs conversation, especially when he does such a fine job of articulating his belief, but I'd like to interject a couple thoughts. YoungPastorMarc: I feel that the bible is a collection of stories that were selected out of hundreds (perhaps thousands?) and put into a single volume to allow the Emperor Constantine to force his new religion on the wealthy and influential subjects under his rule. These were supposedly the most widely used stories in circulation and the best collection of sales pitches for the religion. I don't mean the term "sales pitches" in a negative way but that over time (a little over 300 years) only the stories that couldn't easily be refuted or that worked well to convert someone were used. It has been shown by MANY scholars that MANY of the stories are VERY similar to stories that were being told by other religions and peoples. It is striking the number of parables and events Christianity claims as "Biblical" that would seem to have been gathered and integrated into Christianity. Artsylady: I'm gonna have to agree with the Frog in that I would much rather someone not do me harm first and help me 2nd. Helping me does me no good if I've been harmed and I would take the long walk to the service station over being shot any day. You misunderstand your own question, the choice between being helpful or not is secondary to doing good or evil. Morality is a function of society. Without religion or without Christianity a society determines it's morality. China (which has a history exceeding the bibles dating of humans) functioned very well for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ. They had laws against the common man murdering one another or stealing from one another, obeying their elders... Just because in the USA we think a particular practice is wrong doesn't make it so for people in another country. Still waiting -SS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You mean his "lack of" belief? I, too, enjoy world history. Constantine started out a pagan. He worshipped the sun... not a god, just the sun. When he was getting ready to go into a battle, he prayed for victory to the "supreme god". As recorded later by Constantine (who had no prior exposure to Christianity), after praying his prayer, he saw a sign in the sky above the sun and the words "conquer by this" beside it. He stated that he had a dream that night that Jesus came to him and told him to use the sign he'd seen in all his battles. Constantine had the sign placed on all his soldiers' shields and consequently won the battle. Constantine was still quite ruthless, even after becoming a Christian... he had a lot to learn. He didn't change the Roman coinage (ie. - he left all the pictures of the pagan gods on them) and even built his church on the very edge of Rome so as to avoid upsetting the masses. I hardly consider this an attempt to force his people into a religion through the compilation of many stories into a book called "The Bible". You make it sound like he invented the Bible... The Bible consists of many books written over a period of 1,500 years by more than 40 different people from all walks of life. It was written in many different places by many different people and in three different languages. The Bible says of itself: "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and make us realize what is wrong in our lives." - 2 Timothy 3:16 The Bible is... >still a world's best seller >as relevant today as it was when it was written The Bible has... >been read by more people than any other book >been translated into more languages than any other book >survived many attempts to destroy it >been criticized and ridiculed more than any other book, and yet is still read by millions. The Bible, as I just provided examples of above, is different than any of your books of mythology. It contains law, history, proverbs, poems, prophecy, biographies, and letters. Above all, as Ellie stated, it's the inerrant Word of God. SS, you stated, "...over time (a little over 300 years) only the stories that couldn't easily be refuted or that worked well to convert someone were used." Can you provide examples or reference for this statement? SS, you stated, "It has been shown by MANY scholars that MANY of the stories are VERY similar to stories that were being told by other religions and peoples. It is striking the number of parables and events Christianity claims as "Biblical" that would seem to have been gathered and integrated into Christianity." Can you provide examples of how it was shown, which scholars showed this, and examples of the similar stories in other cultures, religions, or peoples? Also, please provide examples of the parables that you stated have been deemed "Biblical" through integration into Christianity. I am interested in your correlations. I may not be around a computer this weekend, so I will read your responses on Monday. God Bless You. With Love & In His Service, Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellie Posted November 19, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 197 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 19, 2004 (edited) Marc Thanks, for that wonderful defense of God's word, I just wanted to add one more thing to it. The Bible is the most quoted book in history, so if by chance anyone were ever able to destroy it (and like you said many have tried) it could be reconstructed in its entirety by compiling quotes of scripture from the books found in an average library. Praise God, for His truth marches on. Way to defend the faith brother. In His great Love, ellie Edited November 19, 2004 by ellie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted November 20, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2004 Okay athiests. I'll reword the whole thing. You are stranded in your car 10 miles from a garage, with no phone. Everyone that passes you is either someone who will do you no wrong or someone who will help you. You will not be shot. lol. Are you more grateful to those who drive by and do you more harm, or are you more grateful to the one who stops, offers you the cell phone call and offers you a ride to the nearest garage and buys you a hot chocolate and dry clothes. lol. In other words, nobody shoots you! lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted November 20, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2004 Morality is a function of society. Without religion or without Christianity a society determines it's morality. China (which has a history exceeding the bibles dating of humans) functioned very well for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ. They had laws against the common man murdering one another or stealing from one another, obeying their elders... In China you can be jailed or killed for being a Christian. Do you find this 'right' or 'moral'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Slope Posted November 20, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1965 Share Posted November 20, 2004 YoungPastorMarc: From what I've seen written by UF I would say he has plenty of beliefs. He may or may not share them with you. I'll move this discussion to another thread so that we don't dominate this one. I'll respond to you there as well Elle ChadB: #1 as far as I know, no culture ever ate other people as a source of food. I am pretty sure cannablism was practiced by various cultures as a ritual. They would eat certain parts of a vanquished foe to gain strength over their enemies. I don't think it's ok for people to engage in this practice but then again I'm not part of their culture and it is not my place (nor yours) to go to them and impose my belief on them. Suppose they thought that eating peas was the most horrible thing imaginable, you wouldn't think to kindly of them coming to you and telling you what a disgusting person you are. As for your bet, you would lose that one because I believe that murder is wrong. I'm pretty sure that just about every society on the planet frowns on "murder". Did you, in your self righteous indignation and high moral values vote for G.W. Bush? He sent a lot of people off to go kill a lot of other people in Iraq. But killing is wrong... do you support the death penalty? Are you against abortion? You see even in our own culture we can't agree on what is right or wrong. People in other cultures do a lot of things I don't agree with, people in my culture do things I don't agree with. Do I condemn you as a Christian because another Christian burnt down a Jewish Temple? No... Please don't go just because some people do not agree with you. Not everyone in life is going to pat you on the back and love everything just the way you do. Perhaps an anger management group would help you a bit. Tolerance is Christian teaching as well... and for the record I am not an Athiest. Artsylady: now that you've changed the parameters of your question we have a choice between not being helped or being helped... I'll take the "being helped". Of course now the question has nothing to do with good or evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted November 20, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2004 Dear artsylady, This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. You are stranded in your car 10 miles from a garage, with no phone. Everyone that passes you is either someone who will do you no wrong or someone who will help you. You will not be shot. lol. Are you more grateful to those who drive by and do you more harm, or are you more grateful to the one who stops, offers you the cell phone call and offers you a ride to the nearest garage and buys you a hot chocolate and dry clothes. lol. In other words, nobody shoots you! lol. By this example, you have already agreed with my position. You have already assumed that no one will do me harm, which was what Confucius taught...Do not do to others what you would not have done to you. I would not have people kill me, and those passerbys have agreed to not kill me too. You have made them followers of Confucius' Silver Rule a priori. Of course, after everyone agrees to Confucius' position (by your example), I would then welcome some additional help. Hope this helps sort out your situation, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts